Are there rules for the creation of a permanent agent wafer/stack for a clone?

[wmarshal]

I’ve been looking through the Robot Handbook for a means by which a previously existing human consciousness can be downloaded to a storage device and implanted into a clone/biological robot that gets put into cryo until thawed for use. I can’t seem to find that possibility in the current rules.

An important part of my setting will be the ultra rich attempting to achieve effective immortality by regularly backing up their consciousness to a memory stack that could later be implanted into a clone of themselves in the event of death. This method would have been recently created. I can make up whatever I want, but I generally try to look for existing Traveller rules first.

I do know about the method of transplanting biological brains into a clone, but that’s not what I’m looking for as the ultra rich are looking for a means that doesn’t require their biological brain to be readily available.

I know about the Agent Wafer, but it’s temporary and requires the destruction of the original consciousness.

Does anyone know if I’m overlooking something? The Robot Handbook seems very comprehensive, and it seems strange that I’ve been unable to find the concept of the stack or cyberbrain in the book.

 

[Arkathan]

I do not see where a rule is important to your scenario.
Prototypes can be two tech levels lower than the advanced tech. Decide whether you want this to be TL 16 or TL 17, so that the ultra wealthy have to deal with TL 14 or 15 planets, respectively. A large prototype machine that looks like something from Total Recall hooked up to a giga-library of stored consciences.

Then consider the consequences of hackers syphoning copies of those minds for nefarious purposes to be carried out by clones who do not even know that they are not an original...

 

[Vormaerin]

I’ve been looking through the Robot Handbook for a means by which a previously existing human consciousness can be downloaded to a storage device and implanted into a clone/biological robot that gets put into cryo until thawed for use. I can’t seem to find that possibility in the current rules.

An important part of my setting will be the ultra rich attempting to achieve effective immortality by regularly backing up their consciousness to a memory stack that could later be implanted into a clone of themselves in the event of death. This method would have been recently created. I can make up whatever I want, but I generally try to look for existing Traveller rules first.

I do know about the method of transplanting biological brains into a clone, but that’s not what I’m looking for as the ultra rich are looking for a means that doesn’t require their biological brain to be readily available.

I know about the Agent Wafer, but it’s temporary and requires the destruction of the original consciousness.

Does anyone know if I’m overlooking something? The Robot Handbook seems very comprehensive, and it seems strange that I’ve been unable to find the concept of the stack or cyberbrain in the book.

The stack type technology really should be central to the setting. Its not like a thing with some minor effects. Once you can do that, the game becomes quite likely to be about that technology.

If you want to do that, that's cool. There's lots of fun stuff that can come from it. But I am pretty sure there's nothing in Traveller that does more than very timidly dip its toe into that ocean.

 

[wmarshal]

Then consider the consequences of hackers syphoning copies of those minds for nefarious purposes to be carried out by clones who do not even know that they are not an original...

Those are some fun shenanigans that my players would likely have to deal with.

 

[JustEastOfTheEdge]

Have a look at the Fabrication chambers (TL 17) , it does talk about replicating the brain and then re-training it from data on wafers - in the Central Supply Catalogue. p.7

 

[wmarshal]

The stack type technology really should be central to the setting. Its not like a thing with some minor effects. Once you can do that, the game becomes quite likely to be about that technology.

If you want to do that, that's cool. There's lots of fun stuff that can come from it. But I am pretty sure there's nothing in Traveller that does more than very timidly dip its toe into that ocean.

Well the setting is going to be at the point where the stack is just “now” being created and implemented. Otherwise the setting was at TL15. A likely focus would be the characters being part of a covert organization attempting to prevent the stack technology from getting a strong foothold within the society. So the campaign is likely to be about dealing with the introduction of stacks, but the setting environment is not yet really dominated by stacks.

You’re not wrong regarding Traveller not really being about this kind of transhumanism, but I like the system, and how it can be used for setting for all the other aspects.

 

[JustEastOfTheEdge]

You can use the "proto tech" rules and have TL 17 with quirks and limitations in a TL 15 campaign. p.10-11 Central Supply

 

[Sigtrygg]

Yes, you are missing Agent of the Imperium and T5.

T5 describes the tech of the Third Imperium setting in great detail, and the novel shows that agent wafers were possible a long time ago in the Third Imperium setting. They can be produced experimentally at TL10 but the standard TL is 13.

A Personality Can Be Recorded
Personality Scanners make an editable, reproducible record of a Personality from any sophont. The record preserves the Elements of a Personality in a digital format.
The Scanner. Brainscan technology is commonplace and part of modern medical diagnostic practice. Any ship (or other) Autodoc has the ability to perform a brainscan (it takes about an hour).
Formats. A recorded personality can be saved as an electronic file. For safekeeping and convenience, the recorded personality file is usually written to a Wafer

THE BASIC RULES OF RECORDED PERSONALITY
A Personality Can Be Recorded.
A Recorded Personality Can Be Edited.
A Recorded Personality Can Be Overlaid On The Same Genetic Profile, But It Degrades.
A Recorded Personality Can Be Implanted On the Original or its Clone.
A Recorded Personality Can Be Run On A Computer, But It Degrades.
A Person Can Monitor His Personality Running On A Computer.
Rarely, An Overlaid Recorded Personality Becomes Permanent (and Does Not Degrade).

Since the manufacture of the Agent wafers the brain scan has become nondestructive - according to T5 any ship autodoc can do it - and the rules state that in the majority of cases a wafer personality installed into a clone body is permanent and is used in a particularly popular insurance scheme - which can be gained as a mustering out benefit or purchased if you have the cradits:

Life Insurance archives a personality scan and DNA (or
equivalent) sample during the Mustering Out Process. When
notice of death reaches the archive, it enables the creation
of a Clone and Implantation of the character’s personality.
Notice that unless updated, the replacement clone will revert
to the memories and skills recorded at Mustering Out.
Life Insurance may be purchased: the premium is MCr1
to start a policy and Cr100,000 to update.

 

[Vormaerin]

That is in T5, but it is completely unexplored and there is nothing anywhere in the Traveller universe that reflects that in practice. How did Dulinor kill Strephon if this is a thing, just as a starting point? Why was False Strephon not accepted, when this is a thing? Why is anyone bothering with anagathics? As I mentioned earlier, this is a thing that needs a deep dive in exploring its consequences a la Altered Carbon or Eclipse Phase. It was cool to have the Decider forking himself all over the place and doing long term stuff, but once you have millions or billions of people doing it, it radically changes everything.

More importantly, it radically changes how the game plays.

Of course, Traveller has the problem that speed of communications is pretty terrible. If you have your insurance filed on Mora and get killed on Regina, its a minimum of six weeks just for your insurance company to get word of your death. Assuming you have enough clout to get messages sent by J4 express. But PCs could just have the necessary facilities on their ship. They aren't *that* expensive once you are dealing with ship scale pricing.

 

[AndrewW]

Note the Terra/Sol setting does have options for this:

https://www.terrasolgames.com/

 

[Sigtrygg]

That is in T5, but it is completely unexplored and there is nothing anywhere in the Traveller universe that reflects that in practice. How did Dulinor kill Strephon if this is a thing, just as a starting point? Why was False Strephon not accepted, when this is a thing? Why is anyone bothering with anagathics? As I mentioned earlier, this is a thing that needs a deep dive in exploring its consequences a la Altered Carbon or Eclipse Phase. It was cool to have the Decider forking himself all over the place and doing long term stuff, but once you have millions or billions of people doing it, it radically changes everything.

More importantly, it radically changes how the game plays.

Of course, Traveller has the problem that speed of communications is pretty terrible. If you have your insurance filed on Mora and get killed on Regina, its a minimum of six weeks just for your insurance company to get word of your death. Assuming you have enough clout to get messages sent by J4 express. But PCs could just have the necessary facilities on their ship. They aren't *that* expensive once you are dealing with ship scale pricing.

Marc Miller wrote T5 and wrote a novel set in the Third Imperium. If he wrote it, it is canon. To say there is nothing anywhere else that reflects this practice - I don't think a full appreciation of what is in AotI and T5 has yet filtered down to Mongoose Traveller.

There is plenty of canonical wafer related stuff in the Third Imperium now, Agent of the Imperium and the short story Names, and I would point to the Essaray, or the Esseray as Mongoose mispelled them, as a culture that has wholly adopted wafer technology.

I agree that much of what should happen, the FFW, the Rebellion, etc make little sense with Bland around.
Maybe if MWM gets to write another novel we will learn more.

 

[Vormaerin]

AotI doesn't use the improved wafer tech as explained in T5. And T5 has nothing except the rules, unless I'm missing something. No support material or setting impact at all. It's entirely reasonable that wafer tech in the present is that much better than it was in Bland's day. But its incompatible with the setting as written. Sure, Marc wrote it and so it's 'canon' for whatever value that has. But no one, not even Marc, has written material that actually uses that or explores the effects that is has. Effectively, the T5 rules have that, but the Third Imperium doesn't.

Why are there pilots in fighter craft? Its already a bit dubious in basic Traveller, but rule of cool and some handwavy "robots aren't as good/drone control can be ECM'ed" works. But if you can put the pilot in the vehicle without the pilot needing to be physically there? Who cares if it degrades? The pilot is way more expensive than copies of his chip. And that pilot will probably be Baron von Space Richthofen in all of them.

It's a cool idea with lots of fun thought experiments and game play uses, but you can't just drop it in there without radically altering how the setting works. Its not just Bland, who might or might not have expired along with the Edict creating his program. It's the fact that there will be thousands of Blands (not as competent, perhaps ). What are the laws on forking? How are they actually enforced given the communicaitons lag if they even exist? What are the technologies that exist to make sure that guy you assassinated is actually going to stay dead? Why does Norris need to worry about an heir at all, if he can wafer himself into younger versions of himself at need?

But, as far as the OP's question goes, it is true that there is a brief bit on what wafer tech immortality works mechanically in a version of the Traveller rules. But there is absolutely nothing about what that would actually look like in play. You are better off reading Eclipse Phase source material (ignoring the morph part, just going with self clones) if you want some suggestions of how it would affect the world and be used in play.

 

[Sigtrygg]

AotI doesn't use the improved wafer tech as explained in T5. And T5 has nothing except the rules, unless I'm missing something. No support material or setting impact at all. It's entirely reasonable that wafer tech in the present is that much better than it was in Bland's day. But its incompatible with the setting as written. Sure, Marc wrote it and so it's 'canon' for whatever value that has. But no one, not even Marc, has written material that actually uses that or explores the effects that is has. Effectively, the T5 rules have that, but the Third Imperium doesn't.

See the short story Names for more current Third Imperium wafer use. The protagonist has a wafer jack and its everyday use and impact are more evident.

Like it or not MWM owns the setting, his novels and core rules trump third party products or preconceived ideas even if those preconceptions are based on previous canon.

I remember well my first reading of AotI - it completely redefines the setting, and I agree that many of the technologies introduced in T5 have yet to reach their full implications within the setting.

I mean take a look at the current MgT Third Imperium book, there is stuff in there that directly contradicts previous canon.

Why are there pilots in fighter craft? Its already a bit dubious in basic Traveller, but rule of cool and some handwavy "robots aren't as good/drone control can be ECM'ed" works. But if you can put the pilot in the vehicle without the pilot needing to be physically there? Who cares if it degrades? The pilot is way more expensive than copies of his chip. And that pilot will probably be Baron von Space Richthofen in all of them.

Again, see the short story Names. And i have never subscribed to the Star Wars starfighter meme that MgT wishes to introduce to the Third Imperium setting.
Manned fighters make no sense.

It's a cool idea with lots of fun thought experiments and game play uses, but you can't just drop it in there without radically altering how the setting works. Its not just Bland, who might or might not have expired along with the Edict creating his program. It's the fact that there will be thousands of Blands (not as competent, perhaps ). What are the laws on forking? How are they actually enforced given the communicaitons lag if they even exist? What are the technologies that exist to make sure that guy you assassinated is actually going to stay dead? Why does Norris need to worry about an heir at all, if he can wafer himself into younger versions of himself at need?

All good questions, and the setting needs to deal with them.

I remember a Third Imperium where the Spinward Marches were a distant frontier sector and a 1200t colonial cruiser was a ship to worry the opposition. Said ships zipped around using their fusion drives.

Alas we are not in Kansas anymore - the setting has been changed with every iteration of the rules.

But, as far as the OP's question goes, it is true that there is a brief bit on what wafer tech immortality works mechanically in a version of the Traveller rules. But there is absolutely nothing about what that would actually look like in play. You are better off reading Eclipse Phase source material (ignoring the morph part, just going with self clones) if you want some suggestions of how it would affect the world and be used in play.

You mean the referee has to look to fictional works to inform their universe? They have to consider the ramifications for themselves.

Just like CT intended

 

[Vormaerin]

Classic Traveller didn't intend a setting at all.

Mongoose is pretty much up a creek if they have to run with Marc's latest ideas AND stay faithful to what was in print before Marc added this stuff. That's basically impossible considering how much the new stuff radically changes how the setting works.

If Marc wants to write material to support his T5 rules (or pay people to do it), that would be great. It would be interesting to see what he thinks game play and the setting would be like using that stuff. I can't say that I actually like the T5 rules, but there are a lot of interesting ideas in there.

As an aside, expecting people to read novels (instead of game materials) to understand a game and its setting is a bit bs unless the novels are the original source of the IP. And I bet most people wouldn't even be able to find the short story you referred to if they even knew to look for it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Classic Traveller didn't intend a setting at all.

In 1977 no, but by 1979 we had Supplement 3, early JTAS TAS News articles, A1 Kinunir, Supplement 4, LBB4 provided a setting - which LBB5 would radically change.

Mongoose is pretty much up a creek if they have to run with Marc's latest ideas AND stay faithful to what was in print before Marc added this stuff. That's basically impossible considering how much the new stuff radically changes how the setting works.

They chose to reissue Third Imperium rather than make their own setting, so they are bound by canon and the writings of the owner of the setting.
And lets face it once again, the setting changed a lot as rules changed it. The Third Imperium seen through a LBB5 lens is very different to what had gone before, and there are a lot more examples.

If Marc wants to write material to support his T5 rules (or pay people to do it), that would be great. It would be interesting to see what he thinks game play and the setting would be like using that stuff. I can't say that I actually like the T5 rules, but there are a lot of interesting ideas in there.

Lol, I don't even think MWM plays T5. It is a setting toolbox but as an rpg it is hopeless.

As an aside, expecting people to read novels (instead of game materials) to understand a game and its setting is a bit bs unless the novels are the original source of the IP. And I bet most people wouldn't even be able to find the short story you referred to if they even knew to look for it.

You mean like the Forgotten Realms novels, or the Greyhawk novels, or the White Wolf novels...

Marc's novel uses the technology described in T5 (most of which can be found in MgT if you know where to look) to show how the Third Imperium works, or at least the bits he shows us.

I don't recall personal defence personal force fields being anything but Ancient era tech, but now they are part and parcel of the setting. The gravitic m-drive has replaced the fusion drive of CT and TNE. The rules change, the setting changes.

Wafer tech exists in the Third Imperium, it is up to future authors (to do their research) and individual referees to show how it works out in the universe they want to describe.


Do you recall the cybernetic nobles interlude in the MT Knightfall adventure?

 

[Vormaerin]

I don't mind if they implement new stuff, as long as they don't half arse and just drop setting changing techs into the game and then ignore them.

However, I do think that it is unreasonable for people to argue that Mongoose needs to conform to what was already written in the past AND also adapt to ideas that weren't part of that past. That is not something that they can do. If people want the MgTU to stay in line with the canon, it can't implement these new things. Because they'll flat out change the canon. Things would not turn out the same way if this stuff in real.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Then I reiterate that Mongoose should have developed their own setting. If they want to use the Third Imperium then they have to follow established setting canon, and that includes Marc's novels. The games themselves already have so many inconsistencies and contradictions as you move from edition to edition and setting era to setting era.

How much do we really know about the core sectors of the Imperium from prior canon? The reason I mentioned the cyborg nobles in Knightfall is that it mentions in some regions of the Imperium a cyborg noble would be hunted down by the pitchfork and torch crowd, while in other regions they are perfectly acceptable.

And wafer technology is there in the Third Imperium, it has been around for hundreds of years. Does it change the setting all that much?
i would argue that changing the Spinward Marches from a frontier sector to a sector that has over a thousand years of Imperial development changes the setting. Waking up one morning and suddenly every m-drive is now limited to 1000D has a major impact on the setting.

The Third Imperium doesn't become Altered Carbon, although you now have some of those themes that you can play with.

 

[Vormaerin]

Well, I think we are just going to agree to disagree on that.

The wafer tech in Agent of the Imperium, much less the better version in T5, changes things a lot. Sure, its not quite Altered Carbon, but many many events in the published canon don't work if have that kind of life insurance available to anyone with sufficient wealth.

And vastly more importantly, game play for the players changes dramatically.

 

[Arkathan]

They went back to mostly CT Third Imperium. So BEFORE Mega-Traveller. Before the virus.
This new continuity stuff? Irrelevant.
IF those other systems had been popular, we'd be playing them and discussing Traveller on THEIR website. Not the Mongoose forum.
The fact that we are here, and that Mongoose chose a time from before those other systems means that they are NOT obliged to conform to any other setting changes of the intervening rewrites.

 

[JustEastOfTheEdge]

Even the cyber tech that Mongoose introduced has changed how the game works if you include it . The wafer jack feels compulsory for any sensible player as it gives so much extra skill potential.
Including stuff like downloading or uploading personalities makes it into a really different game I think. Depending on how common it is, it could make a mockery of the current character creation, as everyone would have 9 careers with skills right up to their (unnaturally-extended) limits. Things like anti-aging drugs have less meaning, kind of. Even death is no biggie as you just download your "brain clone". It is why we abandoned Eclipse Phase, a game with absolutely wonderful background material, but it just felt pointless as an rpg. Then the issues of having multiple clones in existence at once....blah blah