You wanna bad-arsed de Camp conversion??

[Supplement Four]

I just read The Road of Eagles, from Conan The Freebooter. Man! What an exceptional story!

Some of you don't like L. Sprague de Camp. I like his work. He's got a certain grittiness to him that, while not as good as Howard by any stretch of the definition, fits in well with Howard's Conan tales.

The Road of Eagles is a Howard tale set in 16th century Turkey. L. Sprague de Camp re-wrote it as a Conan tale set during Conan's time among the Red Brotherhood upon the waves of the Vilayet.

This is a fantastic, gripping, bloody, amazing Conan tale. I don't know how much of it is Howard and how much is de Camp, but it takes its place among my favorite Conan tales.

The imagery from word one, starting just after a major naval engagement, is either all Howard or de Camp doing a pretty damn good job of writing a pastiche.

The loser of the sea fight wallowed in the crimson wash. Just out of bow-shot, the winner limped away toward the rugged hills that overhung the blue water. It was a scene common enough on the Sea of Vilayet in the reign of King Yildz of Turan.

The ship heeling drunkenly in the blue waste was a high-beaked Turanian war galley, a sister to the other. On the loser, death had reaped a plentiful harvest. Dead men sprawled on the high poop; they hung loosely over the scarred rail; they slumped along the runway that bridged the waist, where mangled oarsmen lay among their broken benches....

This story is also one that should be marked in that it reveals a bit about Turan and its politics--and what it is like to serve under Yildz.

The real ruler of Turan is Yildz's mother. Yildz is a drunkard. And, there is a Turanian tradition that, once a king is crowned, his brothers are put to the sword in order to keep episodes of civil war to a minimum.

When a king dies, the first surviving heir, brother or son, to reach the capital, becomes the new king.

Teyaspa, Yildz's brother, has managed to survive, through a series of events that could make for its own interesting novel, summed up here in a few sentences.

Ivanos, a character from Howard's tale Shadows in the Moonlight (where Coan joins the Red Brotherhood) also appears in the tale.

Good story. Highly recommended.

 

[danbuter]

I also really liked this story.

 

[djd]

Agreed - good story. I like de Camp. He's gotv a bad press recently but he's a better writter than a lot of the guys who have since been allowed to right the official / approved line of novels. I'm going back to the de Camp / carter line and re-reading the whole lot. They got most of us into Conan in the first place

 

[kintire]

de Camp is patchy: he's good when he's good (Thing in the Crypt) and AWFUL when he's bad (Spider God).

He's at his best when adapting Howard's tales. Lin Carter, on the other hand, is less good than Carter at his best, but much more reliable. Neither can match Howard.

 

[Supplement Four]

de Camp is patchy: he's good when he's good (Thing in the Crypt) and AWFUL when he's bad (Spider God).

If you think Spider God is awful, then don't read Roland Green or Steve Perry.

I liked Spider God. It's not de Camp's best work, and it does stray from the "Conan-esque" feel. But, yeah, I like it as a Conan tale. It adds some depth to spider haunted Zamora.

The tale reads like three short stories slapped together, anyway--like readin' 'em one by one, back to back, serialized.

Not great, but food when you're hungry.

 

[djd]

And no worse than the Robert Jordan novels either I'd say...

 

[kintire]

But, yeah, I like it as a Conan tale. It adds some depth to spider haunted Zamora.

And portrays Conan as a weepy heartsick wimptastic feeb.

 

[kintire]

And no worse than the Robert Jordan novels either I'd say...

Robert Jordan does not portray Conan seriously considering settling down as a blacksmith with a sensible wife. Nor does he dare to try to match Conan's romance with Belit with a "Romance" with an uptight clinging driptastic damsel like Rudabeh

I think Robert Jordan's two Conan tales are pretty good actually. Its just a slight swindle that they published them several times each.

 

[djd]

I think he did 7 books didn't he?

 

[Supplement Four]

I think he did 7 books didn't he?

He did. Six originals and the adaptation of the second Awnold film.

I like Jordan's Conan. I like his stories a lot. He is more of a goodie-goodie, and the tales are not near as dark as Howard writes him. But, I think Jordan's story telling skills are top notch, making him one of the better Conan writers.

I prefer Howard's dark, barbarous character, but Jordan's hero is a good read too.

 

[Supplement Four]

Robert Jordan does not portray Conan seriously considering settling down as a blacksmith with a sensible wife.

I think we've argued on this point before. Conan is fresh from the Turanian Army. He deserted. He hasn't met Belit yet. And, he's wandering around, wondering what he's going to do with his life.

Sure, I can see him considering being a blacksmith for a while having just left a couple of years as a Turanian irregular. And, I can see him falling in love with more than one woman.

To be fair, I was not convinced that Belit was the love of Conan's life as Howard told it in Queen of the Black Coast. Strong, life-altering LOVE did not make it was across the page to me.

Although, in later stories, Conan does seem wayward, directionless, maybe even depressed--but I think that's something that has been retconned about Conan since Howard didn't write the stories in chrono order.

 

[djd]

De Camp himself called his works pastiche .... I think anyone who has written a Conan tale (unless it's REALLY bad) has had to do a pastiche - nothing else would really work. Poul Anderson is another very good author but his Conan tale is nothing special as I recall it?

I will always have a soft spot for de Camp as the man responsible for really bringing Conan out of the pages of the pulps where he would have rotted. I think it's been a bit cheeky of Conan Enterprises or whatever they're called to effectively remove de Camps stuff from the cannon and replace it with other stuff which is certainly no better and generally far worse :?

 

[Supplement Four]

Yeah, I'm reading Turtledove's Conan of Venarium right now. It starts off OK, but I've heard from others that its not a good book and breaks with established convention even though Conan Enterprises considers the book canon.

 

[kintire]

Sure, I can see him considering being a blacksmith for a while having just left a couple of years as a Turanian irregular. And, I can see him falling in love with more than one woman.

You think Conan, Howard's Conan, would consider settling down in cosy domesticity, giving up his naughty ways and becoming a taxpaying member of the community, for the lurve of a wimpy damsel in distress?

To be fair, I was not convinced that Belit was the love of Conan's life as Howard told it in Queen of the Black Coast. Strong, life-altering LOVE did not make it was across the page to me.

Casual acquaintances come back from beyond the grave to save each other all the time, after all.

Although, in later stories, Conan does seem wayward, directionless, maybe even depressed

You mean the ones set after Belit's death? hmmm....

I think that's something that has been retconned about Conan since Howard didn't write the stories in chrono order

He didn't write them remotely in Chrono order, but he seems to have kept excellent notes. Rippke's gone through the tales and he can even trace when Conan lost particular sets of armour/clothing!

I think he did 7 books didn't he?


He did. Six originals and the adaptation of the second Awnold film.

No he didn't. He wrote three books, and then republished them with the names changed.

Read Victorious and Unconquered back to back. They are exactly the same story with the NPC names altered. At least between Defender and Triumphant he bothers to give the antagonist a gender change. And with Invincible and Magnificent... I swear, he isn't even pretending any more.

Don't get me wrong: they are three of the best Conan pastiches and well worth reading. I recommend the Victorious, Defender and Invincible versions. I remain a little irritated he made me pay for them twice though.

 

[djd]

de Camp is patchy: he's good when he's good (Thing in the Crypt) and AWFUL when he's bad (Spider God).

He's at his best when adapting Howard's tales. Lin Carter, on the other hand, is less good than Carter at his best, but much more reliable. Neither can match Howard.

But the irony here is that Spider God is one of the few de Camp efforts that remains canon according to those who control Conan these days.... whereas most of his best work has been removed from the list.

 

[Jacek]

To be fair, I was not convinced that Belit was the love of Conan's life as Howard told it in Queen of the Black Coast. Strong, life-altering LOVE did not make it was across the page to me.

Casual acquaintances come back from beyond the grave to save each other all the time, after all.

It was HER feeling that made the trick possible. His affection (or lack of it) has nothing to do with it. Just a proof that he appealed to Belit.

 

[Jacek]

whereas most of his best work has been removed from the list.

"best work" And that's the problem. It's a purely subjective list, no matter who creates it.

 

[Supplement Four]

You think Conan, Howard's Conan, would consider settling down in cosy domesticity, giving up his naughty ways and becoming a taxpaying member of the community, for the lurve of a wimpy damsel in distress?

I don't want to get into a big debate about it. Obviously, this is something you feel strongly about. I'm just saying that I enjoyed reading Spider God. It wasn't fantastic, but it didn't bore me, either.

And, I like it better than some of Howard's work. For example: Iron Shadows in the Moon. That story had potential, but never really went anywhere. I liked Spider God better.

 

[djd]

whereas most of his best work has been removed from the list.

"best work" And that's the problem. It's a purely subjective list, no matter who creates it.

Oh absolutely! We could argue about it til the cows come home. I just think de Camp has been very unfairly treated by the powers that be in Conan land. It seems to me that it's as much about repackaging and reselling Howard's original stories as it is about anything else. The officially sanctioned stuff published since the 80's is not great for the most part however you look at it (well, not the ones I've read at least)

 

[Spectator]

I agree w/ the spider god supporters.
It was a good yarn, involving scheming Zamoran sorcerers and giant spiders. Pretty good Conan-ic fare.
Yeah the critics made it seem like it was anti-Conan when he considered settlling down w. his Zamoran sex-xlave and started working as a blacksmith, but guys let the man have a break, for the prior 4 years since the age of 16 he was traveling the world living hand to mouth. Actually staying in one locale would be an adventure after years of vagabonding.

It was a good read. DeCamp deserves some scorn, but not with this story. Steve Perry did more to damage the label more than DeCamp did.