Whitestar Battleship

[hegemon]

I know the fleet list says the carrier is the limit to the Whitestar line of ships however I was bored and thought the ISA should receive a whitestar battleship and here is my attempt at makeing it.


White Star Battleship
Class/PL: White Star Battleship / War
Troops: 5
Speed: 12
In Service: 2275+
Turns: 2/45º
Craft: White Star Fighter (2)
Hull: 6
Special Rules: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Jump Engine, Anti-Fighter 6 Dodge 6+, Command +2, Flight Computer, Self-Repairing 3D6
Damage: 45 / 8 Crew: 51 / 11


Improved Neutron Laser 24 F 10 BeamPreciseTriple Damage
Improved Neutron Laser 12 A 6 Mini Beam Double Damage
Molecular Pulsar 17 F 12 AccurateAPDouble Damage
Positron Cannon 20 F 6 PreciseBeamQuad Damage



So what do you think

 

[Sock]

yeah frikkin right a whitestar with self repair 3d6 keep dreamin, second of all a whitestars weapons should be boresighted, dont believe me, watch any episode of B5 where the whitestars engaged in combat

 

[hegemon]

sock you look in the fleet list and you will not find a whitestar of any kind with boresight. so i'll be going from the book and not the show on this one, sorry dude.

 

[Sock]

sock you look in the fleet list and you will not find a whitestar of any kind with boresight. so i'll be going from the book and not the show on this one, sorry dude.

and you have every right to. I was simply pointing out how things should be, and not in any way how they are.

 

[katadder]

whats with the positron cannon? bit much on top of an INL.
make it molecular pulsars alround and max of 2d6 self repair maybe, although basing off the carrier hull would be better. make it a carrier variant, loses 6 WS fighters for increased weapon AD, that way crew, damage, dodge etc are all there already.

 

[Ripple]

The only reason I might go boresight is the stated reason for overiding the show was how maneuverable the whitestar was, I don't see the this ship as much more maneuverable than a hyperion. So why does ti still get the benefit.

Troops seems high... my thought here was that one of the hallmarks of the whitestar line was the need for few crew to man them, saving on the limited manpower available to the organization.

Ripple

 

[wpngjstr]

I'd have to say that it doesn't really do anything for me; I like the idea and kudos for putting it out here, but the implemantation seems "off"

-A 10AD F TD beam appears a little powerful, especially backed up with a 6AD quad :!: damage beam. Granted you're looking at a single target but that would be some where around 54 (approx 10*3 +6*4)points in a single salvo on average (plus the Molecular pulsars, and Aft beams) before crits. Add in the pulsars, and we look at a single 62-68 point salvo, out to 17(?) inches.
(For a Victory you will average about 34-38 single target salvo at 12")
Also, unlike the carrier, there is no real secondary arc weapons, which become a bigger issue as ships get larger- they will be given secondaries to deal with swarms of more common smaller ships

While there are many ships than can deal that much damage in a salvo, generally it's spread over arcs, or very short range (eg a G'quan has a LOT of dice but only about 1/3 of them can hit a target at once, and he has to get in close)

The 3d6 self healing also appears excessive, since it's a War level vessel, that would imply a hull comparable to the carrier, so self healing should be similar. 3d6 gets into the realm of Armageddon level Vorlons

I could see a Battlecruiser version of the carrier (rip out the bays and support systems, and replace them with weapons and defences) to provide a heavy patrolling presence.

So...start with a carrier hull;
drop Carrier, Fleet Carrier, 6 Whitestar fighter.
Add;
+2 AD neutron lasers Forward,
+2 Antifighter (or switch to Advanced Antifighter- use the flight control space for improved tracking systems),
Command +1 or 2,
Either +1 Hull score (unlikely, given the trend of Whitestars) or +25% hull/crew (40 hull, 45 Crew- effectively doubled by adaptive armor)
+2 AD to all molecular pulsars Or FusionCannon 18" T 6AD minibeam (personally I'd like to add an Advanced missile rack from the EA, but that seems inappropriate- so I'd probably favor the Minibeams)

 

[inq101]

No.
Game balance reasons: Overgunned (by about 30-50% I'd say)
Too tough (AA and damage give 90 hits! Add in self-repair and hull 6, it's too tough)
Too manouverable for a War ship.
Combined and the ship is too good.

Fluff reasons: The WS carrier is supposed to be as big as they can make the WS hull.
There's already the gunship which has a more WS feel to it.

I'd suggest a WS command ship instead. The gunships hull, good command and AAF. Slight increase in firepower (I like the idea of a rear gun. You strafe the enemy and keep shooting even as you fly away) and self repair.

 

[Target]

Way overpowered, look at the fireraptor ( poor example ) but it's war & all front firepower & nothing like that.
10 AD TD & Precise beam at 24" don't think so especially when combined with all the other weapons.
A young shadow only has 6AD & no other weapon, Vorlon light cruiser 6AD. The highest AD was 8AD for a beam weapon on a Warship.
Then i've just noticed the quad dam beam, it's overgunned by at least 100% at a minium. Pretty sure that this could almost take out any Armagedon ship.
Whats with 17" range weapon? presuming a typo
I'd take self repair to d6
Neutron laser F 24" 6AD TD, Precise, Beam
Mini beam thingy T 12" 12AD, Minbeam
Molecular Pulsar F 15" 8AD Accurate,AP,DD

 

[GhostRecon]

yeah frikkin right a whitestar with self repair 3d6 keep dreamin, second of all a whitestars weapons should be boresighted, dont believe me, watch any episode of B5 where the whitestars engaged in combat

Okay Sock, but then the White Star should have all the -other- things it has from the series.

Lets list:

Minbari Stealth/ ECM/ECCM systems. Numerous times its mentioned the White Star has a version of the Minbari's cloaking systems.

Neutron Cannon. According to the series, and B5Tech, the White Star has -additional- weapons that ACTA does not list the White Star as having, called "Neutron Cannon" by B5tech (http://www.b5tech.com/isa/whitestar/whitestar.html).

Prow mounted Beam Weapon and Pulsars firing:

Prow Mounted Beam Weapon and both Neutron Cannons firing:

So sure, lets make the White Star boresighted like the series. But oh, don't forget the Neutron Cannon and Minbari Cloak. Wouldn't want it to leave the other parts of the White Star's "canon" out for the sake of game balance, afterall.

 

[Sock]

ya know ghost, you can get sarcastic and cranky with me, but I do not once remember them mentioning anything about the whitestars having stealth tech. Nor can I remember a situation in the show where a ship failed to fire at the whitestar because of said stealth.

but beyond the stealth argument, sure, I would take that comprimise, give it another like 2 AD weapon, but make all the guns boresighted, would be just as balanced as it is now but oh so much fluffier.

 

[Methos5000]

According to B5Tech the comments about stealth were mentioned in either Ship of Tears or War Without End. I don't currently have the episodes available to me so I can't verify but I do recall Lennier mentioning something along those lines.

 

[Ripple]

Not sure, but we do see them get blown away by regular EA ships, which can't lock onto minbari stealthed ships, so they might have a 'version' of it, but not a combat capable one. Something good at long ranges maybe, or only when the ship is largely powered down?

B5Tech didn't have the best rep for a long time, but I haven't been there in years... have to check them out.

The whitestar definately should have a third weapon line, I've never understood why it didn't, given the clear shots in the show.

Ripple

 

[SylvrDragon]

The only reason I might go boresight is the stated reason for overiding the show was how maneuverable the whitestar was, I don't see the this ship as much more maneuverable than a hyperion. So why does ti still get the benefit.

Troops seems high... my thought here was that one of the hallmarks of the whitestar line was the need for few crew to man them, saving on the limited manpower available to the organization.

Ripple

I know that "fishtailing" was stated as the reason behind the non-boresight, but my understanding was that the turn attribute reflected a ships maneuverability, not the arc of its weapons...Sorry, just had to say that. I think it's highly unfair that maneuverable ship, especially ones that didn't have such in the show, were given forward beams instead of the boresights that my floating bricks possess. You know, the whole salt in an open wound thing.

 

[GhostRecon]

I can understand Mongoose's choice in light of the fact it is near to impossible to reflect, in the rules of the game, and without making them horrendously complex, that the White Star is as maneuverable as a fighter, and as such would never have the problems lining up boresight shots that slower, sluggish ships like the Hyperion, Omega, etc, would have.

The White Star is little more than a "Super Advanced Fighter," really. How do you represent that in-game? They easily run rings around other ships, boresighting is never a hindrance for them. I mean, in several scenes, they're essentially -dogfighting- with enemy fighters. Can the Omega or Hyperion do that? The part in the series where Ivanova leads the White Stars against those Shadow Omegas, I think, is proof enough. The Thunderbolts harassing the Whitestars themselves were essentially completely outmaneuvered, let alone the Shadow Omegas themselves. I can't recall any time in the series where maneuver prevented a Whitestar form using its beam weapons on a capital ship. Yet, the way initiative and boresighting is designed in ACTA, it would be a significant hindrance.

Is it fluff as written? No, but I think its the best way to abstract the superiority the Whitestar has in maneuver without having to make a whole new series of rules or revisions to the base initiative rules or boresight rules.

 

[SylvrDragon]

I think 2/90 turns reflects its maneuverability well enough. If you were unable to line up a boresight with 2/90's then there's something seriously wrong...

 

[GhostRecon]

Unless your opponent uses initiative sinks to hide his sluggish and slow cruisers behind screens of escorts, thus nullifying all the turns in the world... circular argument, unfortunately.

One can argue that the way boresight works, and the way the Whitestar is now, form a synergy to represent both the sluggish nature of most boresight ships, such as the Omega, and that the "Front arc" beams of the Whitestar represents its vastly superior maneuverability.

If boresight was actually affected by a ship's maneuver in relation to the attacking ship, instead of initiative sinks, making the Whitestar boresighted wouldn't be an issue. But since initiative sinks are largely the defining factor in boresight, -especially- in the Whitestar's case, I think keeping its weapons to a front arc remains the best solution. If boresight/initiative sinking changes, then I think it'd be good to change the Whitestar, otherwise...

 

[SylvrDragon]

Ah, I see. So them being more maneuverable is why I can't hit lumbering vessels with my boresight. It all makes sense now, brilliant!

 

[Burger]

Okay Sock, but then the White Star should have all the -other- things it has from the series.

Lets list:

Add to your list, that the molecular pulsars are longer range than the INL. When they go back in time to steal B4 and they shoot at the Shadows bomb, they are racing to get into range... and what weapon do they fire first... well it ain't a beam! Therefore the non-beam weapon is longer range than the beam.

 

[Target]

It's pretty common in the show for other weapons open up before beams.