Where's the Dever in Lone Wolf

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Anonymous

Guest
It particularly bothers me that Mr. Dever is not given any writing or design credits in the Lone Wolf RPG. In fact, he's not even listed as a Playtester!?

In small print at the bottom of the title page he is said to be the license holder, HOWEVER, seeing it is his world, I find it somewhat confusing that Hahn gets the entirety of writing credit without ANY mention of Joe Dever!?

Shouldn't there at least be something like 'In Joe Dever's Lone Wolf' or 'Joe Dever's Magnmaund'? Something that properly gives credit to him!

I hope that he at least gets some royalties from this, even if a contract says otherwise, I would hope that he would be gaining from this.

Don't get me wrong, I have liked the Lone Wolf RPG from what I've read in it thus far, it just disturbs me that Mr. Dever is given so little credit. I'd really like to see his name displayed more prominently
 
Now that you mentioned it, I, too, find it a bit strange that Joe Dever's name doesn't appear in the introduction. On the other hand, are there really people who don't know whom we have to thank for Magnamund and the Lone Wolf character?! :wink:

As for August Hahn getting all the credit: well, he has written the whole book, and he has done a fine job! That the setting is not his own invention, is made clear right from the beginning, I think.
 

GreyLord

Mongoose
Confused Wolf said:
Now that you mentioned it, I, too, find it a bit strange that Joe Dever's name doesn't appear in the introduction. On the other hand, are there really people who don't know whom we have to thank for Magnamund and the Lone Wolf character?! :wink:

As for August Hahn getting all the credit: well, he has written the whole book, and he has done a fine job! That the setting is not his own invention, is made clear right from the beginning, I think.

It mentions the books at the beginning, but it never says who wrote them. The only time (THUS FAR) that I've found Mr. Dever's name whilst perusing the books has been in small print in one section at the bottom of the Title Page.

Perhaps it's someplace else I haven't found yet?
 

Arabin

Mongoose
I do intend to pick up this game, but as a long time follower of Joe Dever, I would have liked to see his name prominently displayed on the cover or at least in the intro text. From what I've read here, the book is great, but none of it would have been possible without Joe Dever's vision and skill with putting pen to paper.

I'm sure he is getting royalties from the deal, but somehow that doesn't seem enough.

Arabin
 

Wordmaker

Mongoose
From August's posts regarding the development of the game, Mr. Dever was a very strong part of the development of the game, and had final say over the whole book. I'm not sure where the posts are exactly, but the Mongoose guys are pretty frequent posters, so I'm sure he'll be along to back me up here.

Now, what WOULD be wonderful would be a LW supplement written by Dever himself..... :idea:
 

elSpike

Mongoose
The fact that the book has been published with the blessing of Joe should mean something. From my memory of meeting the man when I was younger, he was a very polite and humble man. Perhaps he is happy not to have his name in blazing lights?

I would guess that if Joe wanted his name on it, it would have been there. The mongoose guys do respect his creation of the world.

So before you go getting all righteous about it, think about the possibility that Joe didnt ask for it to be there, or may well have asked for it not to be there.

my 2c

elSpike out.
 

SableWyvern

Mongoose
For comparison:

Middle Earth Roleplaying: The Roleplaying Game of J.R.R. Tokien's World (front cover).

Call of Cthulhu (Ed 5.6): Horror Roleplaying in the Worlds of H. P. Lovecraft (title page, credits page), plus a mention in blurb.

Star Wars (WEG): Under licence from Lucasfilm, amongst legal text.

As to royalties, with an established reputation and fan-base, I am certain that Mr Dever would have been able to ensure that his arrangement with Mongoose was more than fair.
 
I agree with elSpike here, the whole book was passed through Mr. Dever before it was given the go ahead. From what I know of licensing, Mongoose either payed him a flat fee up front or he gets royalties.

You see, the really interesting thing to me is that the whole world (except for character names) has been made open game content, meaning other publishers can use Magnamund...
 

GreyLord

Mongoose
That's cool. It just struck me as a little strange...and a little odd. I'm okay with it as long as Mr. Dever saw it and asked not to be noticed...

If he didn't...

Well...

I do believe they used Mr. Dever's notes which he allowed them to use in writing it. I would have attributed the writing to both Mr. Dever and Mr. Hahn personally, unless Mr. Dever requested it not to. I don't know, which is one reason I'm curious.

Normally if someone does not request such a thing, it's considered a slap in the face, on the otherhand if they request not to be noticed, it would be a slap in the face if the did include it.

Wish we had the full story on that one.

I've thought of the possibility, and I haven't gotten righteous about it yet, truthfully. I just know enough about some of the business ends of things in experiences with other items to know that attributing things to people is typical and the norm. When one doesn't, it raises eyebrows. It would be good to know the whole story.

On the whole, it just seems a little odd and out of the ordinary. It isn't normal operating procedures, and hence why I am asking about it? Normally such things imply certain things that aren't good, which is why I asked about this.

However, it does ease some of my curiousity knowing that Mr. Dever got to look over the material before hand.

As I said in my first post, I've liked what I've read in the Lone Wolf RPG, but it's Mr. Dever that truly makes Lone Wolf, Lone Wolf to me, which is why I was concerned.

The RPG itself looks like it will be a great deal of fun.
 

Greg Smith

Mongoose
elSpike said:
The fact that the book has been published with the blessing of Joe should mean something. From my memory of meeting the man when I was younger, he was a very polite and humble man. Perhaps he is happy not to have his name in blazing lights?

elSpike out.

elSpike, where did you meet him? I attended one of his LW battle days, and he was as you descripe him. I was a shy teenager meeting and very nervous of meeting him but he put me straight at ease. A thouroughly nice bloke.
 

Arabin

Mongoose
I met him as well, way back at a London PBM Convention, where he had a stall set up to do signings. He was a really nice guy, but I was a young shy teenager as well so didn't take advantage of the chance to chat with him a lot.

Oh, and I'm not getting rightious about it at all. I don't think Mongoose had intentionally done anything underhanded here as they are not that kind of company. It is more likely that either:

a) Joe Dever requested to not be listed prominently.

b) The proofreaders didn't notice and it slipped through the net, but was intended to be included.

c) It didn't occur to anyone.

It is interesting that it is OGL and therefore anyone can release products from that line now. I'm not exactly sure how OGL works though...

And, last comment... the idea of Joe Dever writing a supplement or adventure for the game is a superb one. I really hope this happens.

Arabin
 
Arabin said:
It is interesting that it is OGL and therefore anyone can release products from that line now. I'm not exactly sure how OGL works though...
Arabin

What it means is that ANYONE can legally use anything (other than what is stated at the front of the book (ie character names and a couple of other things)) from the book and publish it, even making money out of it.
 

Arabin

Mongoose
Thanks for the clarification. That's great for the game itself and for the players/customers, but kind of scary for a company to take that pat. Surely it would be in the interest of the company to hold on to the license so that only they could produce rpg books in that range?

Oh the other hand, if everyone has the ability to publish material, it'll give the game more visibility, and therefore everyone will profit more.

An interesting idea indeed.

Arabin
 

Ordovician

Mongoose
I haven't really looked at the Lone Wolf license, but I'd take it that what can be used is the "d20 Lite" system itself and maybe the classes (albeit renamed), but that other companies couldn't do Lone Wolf per se.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Well, august has said many times that the rulebook recieved a thumbs up from dever before hitting the printers (or words to that effect). And really, JOE DEVER writtenon the front cover in huge block letters would not really look all that pretty IMO.

Also, Starwars rpg, or even the movies, hardly have GEROGE LUCAS'S in the title y'know.
 

August

Mongoose
I completely understand the desire to have Mr. Dever's name on the book and while I would certainly not have objected to such, it would probably have been somewhat out of place. Full homage is paid to the creator of the setting both in the Introduction and in the Production Notes. Also, he apparently felt he was recieveing enough credit as he never reqyested any further mention.

I would have been more than happy to do so. Writing is not about ego, it's about giving you all what you want. As proud as I am of the RPG, Mr Dever's name would have been a bonus on the book and I would have gladly given him top billing.

Take care,
-August
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Mongoose August said:
I completely understand the desire to have Mr. Dever's name on the book and while I would certainly not have objected to such, it would probably have been somewhat out of place. Full homage is paid to the creator of the setting both in the Introduction and in the Production Notes. Also, he apparently felt he was recieveing enough credit as he never reqyested any further mention.

I would have been more than happy to do so. Writing is not about ego, it's about giving you all what you want. As proud as I am of the RPG, Mr Dever's name would have been a bonus on the book and I would have gladly given him top billing.

Take care,
-August

Thanks for the clear up. They must have a different printing for mine, as Dever doesn't seem to be mentioned other than in the license notes and in the Designer notes. I found the mention of him at the end of the book, but he isn't attributed as the designer or author of the Lone Wolf series in the copy I have. It is noted he is the license holder as per the copyright. He is not listed as the author or creator anywhere in the book however, in my copy as far as I can find. They list books in the introduction of the copy I have but don't have Mr. Dever's name anywhere in it. Perhaps there was a change?

I'm glad you did put the game together, just so you know. This isn't a pestering match thing, I am grateful for any Lone Wolf stuff I can get! Thanks for writing it!
 
Ordovician said:
I haven't really looked at the Lone Wolf license, but I'd take it that what can be used is the "d20 Lite" system itself and maybe the classes (albeit renamed), but that other companies couldn't do Lone Wolf per se.

  • Reproduction of non-Open Game Content of this work by any means without the written permission of the publisher is expressly forbidden.

Then, a bit later in the legal text:

  • With the exception of boxed story text and character names, character creation rules detailing the mechanics of assigning dice roll results to attributes and the character advancement rules detailing the effects of applying experience, all text within Lone Wolf, The Roleplaying Game is declared as open content.

This breaks down to mean that, if you were to publish your own adventure or somesuch thing based on Lone Wolf, you couldn't use the term 'Lone Wolf' (as it is a character name), Kai, Ishir, Naar etc... but you could use Magnamund, Sommerlund, Sommerswerd and so on, as these are not forbidden in the legal text. You can also use the names of monsters and classes, though not the names of the Darklords. (Though you may refer to them as Darklords). You must also include a copy of the Open Game License, updating it to include everything that you have used from the game and giving proper credit for such, as is spelt out in the license.

What this pretty much means is that if other publishers wanted to, they could print material for Lone Wolf, but must follow a few basic rules.
 
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