What happens if... we double or 1.5x the listed armor values

[Nerhesi]

This is regarding Personal Armor.

From a previous thread (I believe it is on rpg.net open rpg forums), people were going through and talking about what would you want to change if there is an MgT 2.0.

One of the items that kept getting mentioned was armor. I'm curious if any of you gents have changed armour values in your game to make it more effective, and if so, how?

I'm considering a multiplier of 1.5 or 2.0. Thoughts?

 

[Old timer]

Do you mean ship armour or personal armour, either way changing armour values that radically with out changing weapons and damage as well will make armour almost impossible to penetrate. If, for example you took humble gazelle close escort and double its armour, it would be utterly immune to lasers, missiles, nuclear missiles and on average a standard torpedo would fail to penetrate such armour and even particle beams barbettes would have great difficulty in penetrating such armour values. If personal armour was double, or even times 1.5, combat armour would again become difficult to penetrate with most hand held weapons, even with super AP rounds (TL12 armour would become 28 points of armour if doubled, even a super AP gauss rifle doing 4d6 would on average not penetrate that)
In my opinion, not a good idea unless you are going to overhaul how combat and damage works completely.

 

[Nerhesi]

Clarified original post - Personal Armor

Taking some Core/Supply Catalogue examples:

Sword 3d6
Great Axe 4d6+2
Monofilament sword 3d6 armour halved.

10mm autopistol 3d6-2
SMG assault Heavy 3d6
Assault Shotgun 4d6
Assault rifle 3d6+3
Gauss Rifle 4d6
Laser Rifle 5d6
Advanced laser rifle 5d6+3

-----
Armour

Combat armor 11
advanced combat armor 14
advanced powered plate 14
Battle dress 13-16

All rifles, carbines, Gauss weapons and so on can use DSAP. At that point, your Assault/Gauss rifle is penetrating heavy battle dress consistently (14 on the average die roll, plus it ignore 8 armor, plus the effect. 7+ damage vs a battle-dressed trooper from a Gauss rifle/assault rifle). This also does not take into account burst fire (a +4 at minimum).

Laser weapons, dont have any bonus penetration, just generally higher damage if im not mistaken.

You think it could be too anime if you have someone with the equivalent of armor piercing ammo using M16 taking out some hulking battle-dress? Even the regular AP advanced combat rifles/carbines would regularly required 2 bursts to take out a battle-dressed opponent? 3d6+6+effect in damage, with a minus -3 (or a -6) to the target's armour.

Im not going to similarly disect skinny-kung-fu-guy with monofilament blade or the large barbarian with the wooden battleaxe cutting a battle-dressed opponent in half on a good roll.

Thoughts?

 

[DickTurpin]

My first thought is that if everyone in YTU is running around with DSAP ammo then something is seriously wrong. That type of specialized, extremely rare ammunition should be restricted to a few small specialized groups. Even the military would not be using it on a daily basis.

If you restrict the ammo, then the armor values work fine. Being shot at is dangerous; people should spend more time trying to avoid the experience rather than armoring up like a tank.

If you still want fancy, high-end armor piercing ammo to be widely available, then make fancy, high-end armor enhancements widely available as well rather than mess with the listed stats. Ballistic vests can add metal or ceramic plates as additional protection. Perhaps you could allow multiple types of armor to be worn at their full armor values rather than halved.

 

[F33D]

My first thought is that if everyone in YTU is running around with DSAP ammo then something is seriously wrong. That type of specialized, extremely rare ammunition should be restricted to a few small specialized groups. Even the military would not be using it on a daily basis.

I can drive 20 miles over the border and pick up this stuff easily. If you can't then there is something wrong with YTU. There are going to be MANY planets with LL's low enough to have this be a common items.

 

[DickTurpin]

My first thought is that if everyone in YTU is running around with DSAP ammo then something is seriously wrong. That type of specialized, extremely rare ammunition should be restricted to a few small specialized groups. Even the military would not be using it on a daily basis.

I can drive 20 miles over the border and pick up this stuff easily. If you can't then there is something wrong with YTU. There are going to be MANY planets with LL's low enough to have this be a common items.

You must live next door to a very interesting place. In a quick internet search I cannot find any evidence (other than futuristic game sites) that says the stuff even exists in small arm calibers. The smallest I could find was for the .50 cal HMG. I will leave it to the munitions experts on this site to say if it is even being made yet for smaller guns.

Hardened core armor piercing ammo is one thing, discarding sabot and HEAP ammo is another thing entirely. Both were designed to defeat vehicle armor; being upset that personal body armor can't stand up to them is absurd.

 

[F33D]

My first thought is that if everyone in YTU is running around with DSAP ammo then something is seriously wrong. That type of specialized, extremely rare ammunition should be restricted to a few small specialized groups. Even the military would not be using it on a daily basis.

I can drive 20 miles over the border and pick up this stuff easily. If you can't then there is something wrong with YTU. There are going to be MANY planets with LL's low enough to have this be a common items.

You must live next door to a very interesting place. In a quick internet search I cannot find any evidence (other than futuristic game sites) that says the stuff even exists in small arm calibers.

:lol: For small arms (what we are talking about) the equivalent is a jacketed round with a penetrator of hardened steel, tungsten, etc. The "jacket" peals away when hitting the armour and the penetrator continues on through the armour.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

This is regarding Personal Armor.

From a previous thread (I believe it is on rpg.net open rpg forums), people were going through and talking about what would you want to change if there is an MgT 2.0.

One of the items that kept getting mentioned was armor. I'm curious if any of you gents have changed armour values in your game to make it more effective, and if so, how?

I'm considering a multiplier of 1.5 or 2.0. Thoughts?

Who died?

 

[hdan]

While this digression about availability of "military grade" ammunition is certainly amusing....

I'd say a 1.5x multiplier for armor values would get closer to having armor at a given level of combat being effective against the weapons used at that level. In other words, 1.5x to me passes the "don't take a knife to a gun fight" sniff test better than the RAW, based on "what makes a balanced feeling game" reasoning more so than "what most closely models modern armor and weaponry theories."

Using your example, being shot by the most deadly kinetic slug firearm in the game (gauss, DSAP) against 1.5x Combat armor (up to 21 armor value) is 14 points and 8 AP, which means 3 points of damage before you count auto and effect, and in practice 7+ damage per hit on average. By "First Blood", that means on average, one DSAP burst will KO a Combat Armor wearing opponent, but not seriously wound him.

That same gauss rifle on full burst against someone with a flak jacket (now 9 armor) will on average shred him. But he'll be well protected from an SMG or autopistol.

 

[DickTurpin]

:lol: For small arms (what we are talking about) the equivalent is a jacketed round with a penetrator of hardened steel, tungsten, etc. The "jacket" peals away when hitting the armour and the penetrator continues on through the armour.

What you are describing is an AP round, a far different thing from DSAP. Yes, those are available and could be fairly common. They would only bypass 3 or 4 points of armor and do not cause the armor rules to break down. Putting Super-AP (or God help us all), Ultra-AP ammunition into general circulation is what makes body armor ratings seem to be insufficient.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Taking some Core/Supply Catalogue examples:

Like many of the supplements, the Central Supply Catalog introduced new concepts, rules, and equipment to add fun stuff to games, but also added new issues and problems.

Sword 3d6
Great Axe 4d6+2

Such as the high damage from these. There is some small degree (personal judgement) of balance, the heft. There is also the old saying, don't take a giant melee weapon which people can see coming a mile away to a gun fight. Folks with these weapons would tend never to get a chance to use them without being mowed down by gun fire.

Monofilament sword 3d6 armour halved.

I don't have issue with a high tech weapon being effective against the armor of it's time.

Thoughts?

I guess the author of the CSC had the opinion that weapons should be better than armor. I find comments like

Using DSAP rounds this weapon can penetrate combat armour or even battle dress with relative ease.

So it was not some "error", but a design choice. Something to remember is that the CSC is a generic setting book. Weapons for a star wars setting, fantasy setting and so on. Perhaps instead of rewriting the combat rules you just pick and choose what gear is used in your game and/or modify specific items instead of modifying the combat rules entirely. One problem with upping armor rating across the board is the changes to the lower tech armor like a flak jacket (now 9 armor at x1.5) somehow making a 1d6 punch to the face unlikely to do much except with max damage and a bit of effect. Even the full coverage, higher tech, higher armor value armor could have some weak areas like the flexible joints, hands, face visor or whatever. The damage/armor values probably should allow for this.

Personally, I like to make do with the rules as written whenever possible and my games tend not to be military simulations. I like to role play in my RPGs and I prefer a good tabletop strategy game for combat strategy gaming. So I make use of this from the rules

Most (but not all) starports and orbital installations maintain an
Imperial–Standard law level. Sidearms and hand weapons are
generally permitted but nothing heavier – though other weapons
can of course be carried in cargo containers or transported onto a
world that has a lower law level than the port.

and so far I have not noticed the "unbalanced" issues some people comment on in MTU where players are not playing active duty military characters or legal mercenaries.

 

[Nerhesi]

Nobody died. Just an assessment for weapons vs armor so that there is more incentive to use something above DSAP ammo/advanced cartridge laser rifles (other than against vehicles).

If you can use low/mid range weaponry to consistently penetrate the most advanced armor that is up to 4 TL higher (and sometimes more)...

I find it hard to believe that a wooden hafted battle axe swung hard enough, or a 21st centuryish assault rifle firing a burst of DSAP should reliably do damage against fully battle dressed/power armoured opponents.

Am I the only one seeing a problem with a TL 11 Laser Rifle (8,000 credits) consistently penetrating TL 14 Armor (3.5 MILLION credits) and doing 5 + effect damage per hit?

 

[Nerhesi]

While this digression about availability of "military grade" ammunition is certainly amusing....

I'd say a 1.5x multiplier for armor values would get closer to having armor at a given level of combat being effective against the weapons used at that level. In other words, 1.5x to me passes the "don't take a knife to a gun fight" sniff test better than the RAW, based on "what makes a balanced feeling game" reasoning more so than "what most closely models modern armor and weaponry theories."

Using your example, being shot by the most deadly kinetic slug firearm in the game (gauss, DSAP) against 1.5x Combat armor (up to 21 armor value) is 14 points and 8 AP, which means 3 points of damage before you count auto and effect, and in practice 7+ damage per hit on average. By "First Blood", that means on average, one DSAP burst will KO a Combat Armor wearing opponent, but not seriously wound him.

That same gauss rifle on full burst against someone with a flak jacket (now 9 armor) will on average shred him. But he'll be well protected from an SMG or autopistol.

Thanks Hdan - thats exactly what I'm talking about it. Elevating ever so slightly as to create valid differences/plateaus in combat.

"No, that 9mm SMG will not hurt the guy in a 3million dollar suit of power armor".

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Cutting, chopping, slicing, mashing, crushing, puncturing, tearing, shredding, are different kinds of damage from various weapon types against various armor types that I don't go all that detailed into. A role-player who might have an ax as the only thing nearby, might just give "throwing it" worth a try at least against Iron Man. If the ax happens to do the max damage it can, simply role-play out how cool that was.

People have to realize the max damage amounts on the charts do not equal actual die roll damage. They read "3D6+6 damage" and see "24 damage" every time.

 

[Nerhesi]

:lol: For small arms (what we are talking about) the equivalent is a jacketed round with a penetrator of hardened steel, tungsten, etc. The "jacket" peals away when hitting the armour and the penetrator continues on through the armour.

What you are describing is an AP round, a far different thing from DSAP. Yes, those are available and could be fairly common. They would only bypass 3 or 4 points of armor and do not cause the armor rules to break down. Putting Super-AP (or God help us all), Ultra-AP ammunition into general circulation is what makes body armor ratings seem to be insufficient.

There are many examples of cheap, easily available gear (both in core and supply catalogue) that will penetrate 3.5 Million credit battle-dress consistently.

Based on your statement, and somehow artificially limiting DSAP - would you still not think it would be several magnitudes more common than several-million-dollar battle dress? Which it would then defeat for near negligible cost?

 

[Nerhesi]

Cutting, chopping, slicing, mashing, crushing, puncturing, tearing, shredding, are different kinds of damage from various weapon types against various armor types that I don't go all that detailed into. A role-player who might have an ax as the only thing nearby, might just give "throwing it" worth a try at least against Iron Man. If the ax happens to do the max damage it can, simply role-play out how cool that was.

People have to realize the max damage amounts on the charts do not equal actual die roll damage. They read "3D6+6 damage" and see "24 damage" every time.

I hope people realise that! Thats why I've been using average damage or a low average on my calculations.

TL 11 Laser Rifle - 5d6+3 = 20 damage + effect.
TL 7 Assault Rifle with DSAP = 14 damage on a burst, +effect, ignoring 6 armor.
TL 5 (yes, 5) Heavy Bolt Rifle with DSAP = 18 damage +effect, ignoring 8 armor.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

"No, that 9mm SMG will not hurt the guy in a 3million dollar suit of power armor".

If a SMG does 3D6 damage, and a 3mil battle dress has 18 armor...

Now if you're talking about a player having a primo gun or primo bullets, why doesn't the other guy have a primo suit? And what does all this added toy stuff have to do with the story or role-play? What are the goals of the PCs and NPCs in your game group? How did the players paint themselves into a corner where their only option is to shoot their way into another painted corner? And what are the other players doing who are not gun or suit nuts? Or are they min/maxing power-gaming also, always trying to beat the game somehow?

 

[Nerhesi]

Dont think we're seeing eye to eye Shawn because you seem to question my players intent/scenario whenever we come to a disagreement; which has no relevance on my discussion/the reason we discuss this as a gaming group.

It seems that in your game, a wooden battle axe or a WWII era gun should be able to penetrate a TL 14+ 3.5 million credit power armor; even if it only happens 50% of the time or 25% of the time.

Just a different mindset then; my group and I are not looking for 100% realism, just something a bit further away from lucky-hits-KOing-starmarines in battle dress with archaic weaponry. Thats the equivalent of saying if I swing at an M1 tank long enough with my sword or empty a couple of 10mm clips at it, it should penetrate!

To us anyways. I guess you may take that as "you hit the driver as he opened the hatch to stretch and get some fresh air"

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

It seems that in your game, a wooden battle axe or a WWII era gun should be able to penetrate a TL 14+ 3.5 million credit power armor; even if it only happens 50% of the time or 25% of the time.

An ax or WWII gun would not penetrate such armor.

Let's say I hit the suit with my ax and nothing happens. Do you seriously expect me to get another chance to swing it at the guy? And why would I even be going after such a guy at close range without a suit of my own?

Just a different mindset then; my group and I are not looking for 100% realism, just something a bit further away from lucky-hits-KOing-starmarines in battle dress with archaic weaponry. Thats the equivalent of saying if I swing at an M1 tank long enough with my sword or empty a couple of 10mm clips at it, it should penetrate!

An M1 would be protected against those weapons. No effect. The M1 runs over you.

 

[locarno24]

I'm not a fan of the masses of AP effects in CSC for this reason.

One comment I will make in defence of Battle Dress is that even if it's penetrable, it's still not a bad investment because (a) it's still better than anything else out there and (B) it's the equivalent of 2-3 times its cost in characteristic augmentations.

One odd thing to note is that way back in the dim mists of time (the Mongoose Traveller playtesting) Battle Dress was only 350,000. It and Combat Armour both acquired an extra power of ten on their price tags in the final version.