Weapon control system from Legend of the Rangers

Vortex

Mongoose
When it was last brought up on the forum, the weapon control system from Legend of the Rangers received quite a beating from most members. Personally, I think it is one of the coolest things I've ever seen and I want to try and explain why.

First, you have to look beyond a very average actress punching at mines and look at the concept and possibilities of the technology itself. Here's what it offers:

-A 180 degrees display in all 3 dimensions.
-A position allowing totally unrestrained body movement (even while sitting your leg movements are limited, not while floating)
-A system that can monitor pretty much any movement your entire body makes. (It is clearly established that it can acquire targets based on eye movement so I guess it can at least monitor movements down to finger movements)
-An apparently very powerful software interpreting those movements (While in the comet trail, she was rotating while remaining virtually immobile so the commands she gave with her movements had to be very subtle but still seamed quite precise)

To me, short of direct link between the brain and the computer, this is pretty much the ultimate interface.

The thing to remember is that a computer interface can be customised per user. It's even possible on Windows today so the Minbari must have discovered it!

Any user can have his own set of commands which can be something very different from punches and kicks. The girl in the movie clearly has a violent temperament and is quite a fighter. Also, to some martial artists, these moves are so natural they become second nature. In that case, it makes sense to choose these moves as commands (exept maybe for getting tired) because the fight is much more intuitive than pressing buttons so your reaction time is better.

Another user could use very different moves. I easily conceive a religious Minbari calm and immobile almost in a trance using small finger, head and eye movement to operate the system. The possibilities are endless.

Just look at your hand. You have two joints per finger that you can operate independently (the last one is harder to control individually so we'll just not use it). That gives you 4 positions per finger (unbent-unbent, bent-unbent, unbent-bent and bent-bent). That's 1024 combinations with 5 fingers. Now let's consider only 3 positions for the hand: (bent forward, bent back and unbent). Were up to 3072 positions and that's just for one hand. If you combine it with the other hand, you're up to 9,437,184 still leaving the rest of the body and the eyes out of the equation.

Obviously, this would require a great amount of training but would also become very intuitive at some point. You must also remember that these are people from 250 years into the future; these things are more natural for them. Imagine someone from 1750 watching you typing while you chat, they would not understand how you can use all these buttons at this speed…

I would like to know what everyone thinks about this view of the system.
 
I like your take on it, but you mean 360 degrees of view not 180 :lol:

Also, the Minbari warrior caste being who they are, they would likely develop a specialist martial art for this interface, anfd that special race of Minbari that went out into space might have started it all.

LBH
 
I also like your take on it. It does make me more forgiving of that aspect of the show and I might enjoy it on my next watch through.

Though besides the combinations you suggested there are plenty more movements that can be associated with hands :wink:

I've played a few computer games where moving the mouse in a certain way caused a command to be issued. And I know there is software that does this as well for OS.

It is possible to build that sort of tracking system today, though I'm not sure as to the requirements to run the software :wink:
 
As LBH said its 360 vision and it gives you a bonus on martial arts as well (Looks in "Ships of the Galaxy") +1 for targeting. page 75
 
I was going to say it's also 6 Degrees of Freedon, but it isn't really, the operator can rotate but not translate so it's only a 3 Degrees of Freedom system.

LBH
 
lastbesthope said:
I was going to say it's also 6 Degrees of Freedon, but it isn't really, the operator can rotate but not translate so it's only a 3 Degrees of Freedom system.

That's only for the torso orientation.

You've got two arms and two legs in the equation too (at minimum) which are the actual inputs (say an extra 3-4 degrees of freedom (with constraints) each) so a conservative 15 degrees of freedom there on the inputs :)
 
All the resons given do make a good argument, but you can't get away from the fact that it still looks pants.
 
mpm5 said:
All the resons given do make a good argument, but you can't get away from the fact that it still looks pants.

What if you instead had to wrestle the female avatar of the other ship to the ground and some baby oil was involved..?

icon_getmecoat.gif
 
frobisher said:
mpm5 said:
All the resons given do make a good argument, but you can't get away from the fact that it still looks pants.

What if you instead had to wrestle the female avatar of the other ship to the ground and some baby oil was involved..?

icon_getmecoat.gif

Crusade/Andromeda crossover ...... 8) :P

LBH
 
lastbesthope said:
I like your take on it, but you mean 360 degrees of view not 180 :lol:

Indeed, I ment 360...

I heard some Mongoose book covers that system. Would anyone know which?
 
frobisher said:
mpm5 said:
All the resons given do make a good argument, but you can't get away from the fact that it still looks pants.

What if you instead had to wrestle the female avatar of the other ship to the ground and some baby oil was involved..?

icon_getmecoat.gif

Ok I'll give you that, it would then be a much more interesting fight sequence, possibly one that could not be shown on TV, but the DVD's would sell fast ;-)
 
Sorry, no matter how one tries to polish it up, it's still fecal matter. Here we have a system dependent on the reaction time of a human being. A human being who needs to exercise gross, high mobility body movements to cause an action. Why are boxing rounds three minutes long? Because professional athletes get tired and need a break. Now, lets imagine a battle that goes on for 10 minutes? 20? 30? The designer of this system has created a weapons system for a starship completely dependent on the coordination and endurance of a solo operator. Heck, what happens if the operator pulls a muscle, gets a stitch in her side, has an attack of overactive bladder? Beyond that, if the operators eyes are the display interface, what happens with multiple targets above, below, behind? How does the operator keep track? Why not compress the view into a display in the 120 degree arc in front of the operator and have movements be done by hand movements in a 2 foot by 3 foot box?

Sorry, but when I spar for a typical 3 minute tournament round I'm a bit winded and the 1 minute break is most welcome. Now, tell me that I have to spar non-stop for a 60 minute running battle and I'll tell you that you're insane. There's a reason the Romans rotated the front line back every 5 minutes.

As an exercise, go into your backyard and throw a punch, then a kick, then jump straight up in the air. Repeat that cycle as fast as you can (say, an action a second) for as long as you can. Now, try and note how fast you're executing the movements in a minute, then 2, then (assuming you're still upright) 5. If your movements get at all sloppy or you need to pause before, say, 15 minutes have elapsed you and your crew of dozens or hundreds are all dead because your aim was off or you were too tired to throw your plasma cannon firing kick. Now, decide if you want to trust the lives of you and your crewmates to that kind of a weapons system.

Matt
 
I already agreed that using fighting moves for command doesn't make complete sense. But if you read my original post you'll see the same interface could logicaly be used with commands that would actually be LESS exausting that pressing buttons.

As for the display, configure it! You want to use only 120 degrees? You want green wireframes for it to be more clear? Why couldn't you? If the computer can process it, it can display it.

If you really want a keyboard and a 2d screen, this interface could actually create one using false perspective and it would look like it's right in front of you.

The only thing a conventionnal interface that can't be reproduced in this system is the sense of touch (as far as we know...)
 
lastbesthope said:
Well as far as your fatigue argument goes, remember it is a Minbari ship, they're a lot tougher than humans.

LBH

Sure, but they're not superhuman. We've seen them get tired after fighting all out for a mere few minutes (Lennier breathing heavily). We also know that Marcus and Sinclair can hold their own against them, so that sets a bit of a limit upon their strength. Let's say that they're three times as strong; an trained human using the regimen I outlined would be tired and sloppy in 5 minutes, a Minbari in 15, which leaves them up the creek in an hour long engagement.

Matt
 
Vortex said:
I already agreed that using fighting moves for command doesn't make complete sense. But if you read my original post you'll see the same interface could logicaly be used with commands that would actually be LESS exausting that pressing buttons.

(Snip)

The only thing a conventionnal interface that can't be reproduced in this system is the sense of touch (as far as we know...)

Up until 4 years ago, part of my job was testing and evaluating robotic surgical systems in the OR via remote interfaces. I could control >60 functions on the fly with my hands in the control setup, including delicate endoscopic tissue manipulations. I have a tough time seeing what would be needed in a weapons system firing system that would require more than that or the keyboard interface to play Mechwarrior 2.

Beyond that, your movements can't be too subtle; if crooking your wrist 20 degrees fires the port laser and 35 degrees dumps coolant, you're going to have a bunch of errors.

I will freely agree that a virtual keyboard would make perfect sense, think some of the stuff in the movie Minority Report. Had that been shown, I'd be impressed. However, a chamber where you punch and kick yourself to exhaustion to fire lasers is just stupid. The fact that they have a chamber like that and the captain didn't tell his weapons officer that she was an idiot and endangering his ship argues that in the Babylon 5 universe, this weapons system was used as it was designed, which was a dumb idea.

Matt
 
I think the only "justification" for the system is that it would allow some one well trained in martial arts and almost completley untrained in Starship Weapons systems to operate as a gunner. That would make sense in regards the known decline of the Anla'Shok to the time just before the Earth Minbari War when they were under resourced and treated as something of a joke, and the Liandra dates from that time almost exactly.

It's still a pants idea though. I bet if they'd gone to a series though, the Liandra would have "recieved a refit" and we'd have never seen that system in use again...
 
theory two: such a dumb weapons system is a signficant part of the reason the warrior caste treats the rangers as a joke.

Warrior caste takes one look at the targeting system, and immediately loses alot of respect for the above reasons. 8)

Makes the warrior caste less of a monopoly looking for an easy win and more of a real military
 
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