Vincent's Zamboula

[tarkhan bey]

Hi Vincent, so Zamboula has a population of about 28,000.
Is it safe to assume that this does not count the slave population?
I imagine that Zamboula is a major stopping point on the slave road between the Black Kingdoms and Agraphur.
So, how many slaves would there be at any one time? Are there slave pens where the slaves are kept? If so, is it reasonable to assume that the slavers(and their guards)are likely to be Stygians or mercenaries in their employ from Sukhmet(given the preponderence of Darfaris)?
If the Darfari's are feared for their numbers, how many would you think that there might actually be? It seems a bit tricky to guesstimate. From Maneaters of Zamboula, I get the impression that there might only be a few score(possibly up to a hundred) active cannibal Darfari.
There are also less than 300 Asshuri employed but how many Turanian soldiers does the Satrap have at his disposal? From your work on Jewels of the Vilayet, it would appear that as a Satrap he could have many thousands.
Assuming that the Zamboula setting is not as important to the Turanians( a desert backwater) as it is to we role players, might the bulk of the Turanians in the city's Turanian ward be military personnel and such businesses that support them. Perhaps a thousand soldiers with many of these out on long range patrol duties or on garrison duty in places like Yukkub and Aqaba.
Do you think that the threat of the Darfari may be overestimated? They are the bogeymen of Zamboula but, to me, I cannot see that they would have anywhere near the numbers needed to seriously mount a rebellion.
It seems more likely that the Turanians could stamp them out easily, but for some reason they do not and hire mercenaries to police the city.
Your thoughts and opinions would be greatly valued, along with any others who might like to post comment.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I would say that number includes the slaves. Give me a bit to think on the rest.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I imagine that Zamboula is a major stopping point on the slave road between the Black Kingdoms and Agraphur.
So, how many slaves would there be at any one time?

A lot. Probably in the hundreds or even thousands at times.

Are there slave pens where the slaves are kept?

Yes.

If so, is it reasonable to assume that the slavers(and their guards)are likely to be Stygians or mercenaries in their employ from Sukhmet(given the preponderence of Darfaris)?

Yes.

If the Darfari's are feared for their numbers, how many would you think that there might actually be? It seems a bit tricky to guesstimate. From Maneaters of Zamboula, I get the impression that there might only be a few score(possibly up to a hundred) active cannibal Darfari.

Most slaves will be women, children and elderly. Few people enslave able bodied adults - unless they have a culture where they sell themselves into slavery to get out of debt or trouble with the chief. I would wager that that the adult male cannibal slaves of Darfar are probably children who grew up in slavery and taught their culture by their mothers. There may well be only a few score (up to a hundred) who actively practice their native customs when they can, although there certainly can be more Darfari (and other Black Kingdoms) present in the city.

There are also less than 300 Asshuri employed but how many Turanian soldiers does the Satrap have at his disposal? From your work on Jewels of the Vilayet, it would appear that as a Satrap he could have many thousands.

The amount probably varies, but I wouldn't say "many" thousands. Probably a few hundred. If Turan suspects some military attack, they might bolster it up to a thousand or so.

Assuming that the Zamboula setting is not as important to the Turanians( a desert backwater) as it is to we role players, might the bulk of the Turanians in the city's Turanian ward be military personnel and such businesses that support them. Perhaps a thousand soldiers with many of these out on long range patrol duties or on garrison duty in places like Yukkub and Aqaba.

Possibly.

Do you think that the threat of the Darfari may be overestimated? They are the bogeymen of Zamboula but, to me, I cannot see that they would have anywhere near the numbers needed to seriously mount a rebellion.
It seems more likely that the Turanians could stamp them out easily, but for some reason they do not and hire mercenaries to police the city.
Your thoughts and opinions would be greatly valued, along with any others who might like to post comment.

I think prejudice plays a large part of the overestimation of the Darfari threat. Sort of like when a [insert whatever ethnicity your culture seems to dislike today] family moves in, people start to say, "there goes the neighbourhood - they are going to take over now."

Although, if the Darfari are mostly the slaves of the higher class, it wouldn't take that many to wipe out all the leadership of the city and plunge it into chaos. Just agree to stab all the nobility that night, because they are all slaves to the nobility... so maybe their fear is a bit justified.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Keep in mind that Zamboula is but a thinly disguised Istanbul.

I thought that was Aghraphur.... the capital of an Ottoman-like/Turkoman-like empire.
My idea of Zamboula is more on the line of desert caravan cities, something like ancient Palmyra or medieval Samarkand.

 

[thulsa]

Keep in mind that Zamboula is but a thinly disguised Istanbul.

I thought that was Aghraphur.... the capital of an Ottoman-like/Turkoman-like empire.
My idea of Zamboula is more on the line of desert caravan cities, something like ancient Palmyra or medieval Samarkand.

According to de Camp in his "Hyborian Names" appendix* to "Conan the Swordsman", the name Zamboula is probably based on "Stamboul", a variant spelling of Istanbul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Istanbul#Stamboul

But I agree that as to significance, population, culture, architecture, etc., Aghrapur would be more like Istanbul and Zamboula something like Palmyra.

- thulsa

* Can't find any online version of this work right now, but I know I have seen it somewhere on the web before.

 

[Phobos]

I agree with Thulsa, I see Zamboula more like a comercial city than a capital one, in the line of Palmyra or Samarkanda

 

[Supplement Four]

I agree with Thulsa, I see Zamboula more like a comercial city than a capital one, in the line of Palmyra or Samarkanda

I'm going to have to agree with that, too. In Howard's The Man-Eaters of Zamboula, it "feels" like an oasis and caravan stop that grew into a moderately sized town--almost like an old western town from the American west. In Offutt's Conan The Sword of Skelos, it feels a touch bigger, but not much.

It hasn't "read" to me like it's a huge city like Arenjun or even Shadizar.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I think you guys misread me. My mention of it was to give a cultural example, not a literal transposition. Howard often used names like that to evoke a quick culture & atmosphere so he didn't have to go into a lot of cultural exposition.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I think you guys misread me. I also think it is much smaller than Istanbul in its prime... I was thinking of an early, early Istanbul, before it became a metropolis. I doubt it sprang into existance overnight as a massively huge city. My mention of it was to give a cultural example, not a literal transposition. Howard often used names like that to evoke a quick culture & atmosphere so he didn't have to go into a lot of cultural exposition.

Still, Zamboula was large enough to have a satrap (and a palace), and large enough that its female ruler thought she could get away with a disguise... hinting that it is large enough that most people wouldn't know what she looked like.

Perhaps it was an unimportant hole in the wall and is smaller than I imagine (but I still imagine it smaller than Istanbul). I like the picture of Zabibi and Conan in "the Conquering Sword of Conan" with the arches and streets behind them. There are mentions of alleys, side streets, squares...

When I mentioned Istanbul, all I meant was that it has the atmosphere and cultural aspects that Istanbul evokes. Just take aspects of Istanbul, scale them down to the size you think Zamboula is, and there you have it.

Regarding Istanbul origin....we all know that Istanbul was Constantinople/Byzantium in an earlier period (still a large metropolis by seaside) and, before that, it was a Greek Polis called Byzantium.
And if you check again the historical contexts of Constantinople, Byzantium or Istanbul, they are all definitively different from Zamboula.
At least to me.

I get what you mean regarding atmosphere and I know that REH world is not a perfect copy of our own world.
However, in terms of atmosphere, I still think Istanbul is a wrong suggestion for Zamboula.

Istanbul is multicultural...but of a different kind: it is a seaside Greek-Turkic metropolis in the center of the Mediterranean routes.

Zambula is multicultural, but not as Istanbul, but as a desert caravan city acting as a bridge between Arab-like and Indian-like people, this is why I mentioned Palmyra and Samarkand.
Zamboula is along a desert trade route, there are many religions and one of them, the cult of Hanuman, is clearly Vendhyan (Indian?), it is governed by Turanians (Turkomans?) and guarded by Shemite Soldiers (Arab mercenaries?).
It clearly sounds more like Samarkand than Istanbul.
Furthermore Zamboula was founded in ancient times by Stygians (Palmyra is ancient and founded by Arameans, while Samarkand was maybe founded by Alexander the great).

 

[VincentDarlage]

Well, I guess I don't need to answer any further questions on this topic, esp. since anything I say is taken WAY too literally and a lot further than I ever intended... and it is kind of pissing me off.

In no way did I mean that Zamboula should be a Hyborian age version of Istanbul, just that the name is evocative of it for atmosphere and for a quick & vague exotic cultural understanding so REH wouldn't have to go into a lot of detail. Zamboula's basic history is explained in the story, so I don't know how Istanbul's history got dragged into it. I sure as hell didn't mean Istanbul's history should or does match Zamboula's - I was talking about the SIZE of the place way back in its shrouded beginnings, nothing more.

When I think of Istanbul, I don't think of ports... I think of the bazaars and temples and architecture...and intrique, mystery and exoticness. I think that is what Howard was going after... and so was I by mentioning it.

Base it on Palmyra or Samarkand or Khartoum for all I care. Base it on Istanbul if you want (I wouldn't, but what the hell). It's Zamboula.

(and lines like the "Furthermore Zamboula was founded in ancient times by Stygians" is what really pissed me off - as if I didn't know the history of the city. The whole post read like this guy thought I was ignorant and he needed to educate me. The bold print sounded like he was raising his voice to make his unnecessary points.)

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, I guess I don't need to answer any further questions on this topic, esp. since anything I say is taken WAY too literally and a lot further than I ever intended... and it is kind of pissing me off.

Wow. Vincent. Calm down, man! We're just talkin' Conan here, that's it. It's not politics or religion or anything like that.

I think people put a lot of weight into what you say because you've earned it. You're viewed as a "Conan Scholar" or a "Conan Expert". When you write, it's not just another gamer writing--it's the man who wrote, by total page count, the biggest portion of the game.

Take it as a compliment. Don't get pissed off at it. :wink:

 

[tarkhan bey]

It would be a terrible shame to lose your input into this thread Vincent, especially as I would like to ask for further opinions from you(and I started the thread).
It does seem to be devolving into a disagreement about the origins of the name and whether Howard intended Zamboula to be a Hyborian Istanbul.
Interestingly, though, you do mention Khartoum. There was a similar thread a few years back discussing all things Zamboula and the Kharamun desert. I had always seen Zamboula as Khartoum but the discussion with Darkstorm changed my mind. I am now fairly certain that Sukhmet is more likely to fit the bill.
Samarkand, likewise, seems to exist already on the Hyrkanian steppe as Secunderam.
Palmyra is a probably a good analogy for Zamboula, but, I agree completely with you that Istanbul is a name to conjure images with and that Howard had this in mind when he named Zamboula. 8)
Anyway, back to the point of the thread.
Its an interesting notion that many of the Darfari cannibals may have been born in captivity and goes a little way to explaining why they seem to be able to roam the streets freely at night. I don't know if I agree with the Turanians not taking many male prisoners though-who's gonna row those purple sailed war galleys? I reckon that that big burly Darfari's are prime candidates for the rowing benches.
I think that you are right about the number of Turanian troops rarely exceeding a few hundred. I reckon that the Satrapy of Zamboula covers quite a vast area and I don't think that my scenario of long range patrols and isolated garrisons(to keep the local Zuagir tribesmen in line and protect the Caravan roads) is too far fetched. So I reckon I will go with 1000 men all told.
One more question, for the moment. Did you ever do a map of Zamboula?

 

[tarkhan bey]

Sorry Vincent, one more question. How many men do you think that the Satrap would have in his bodyguard detachment?

 

[LucaCherstich]

The whole post read like this guy thought I was ignorant and he needed to educate me. The bold print sounded like he was raising his voice to make his unnecessary points.

Sorry if I offended you with the bold print.
It is just that this is not my native language and when I write things, then it happens that I highlight something, just to show what is my main point.
I still do not understand why you get that so serious.
I have always praised your work and recognized you as an authority regarding the Hyborean Age.
And even when, reading your posts, sometimes I found some replies completely against my vision of the REH world (and...do you wonder? it happens sometimes!) I never get offended so seriously.
Sorry again if I offended you this time.

 

[LucaCherstich]

and lines like the "Furthermore Zamboula was founded in ancient times by Stygians" is what really pissed me off - as if I didn't know the history of the city.

and I never meant that.
I have bought Mongoose Conan books because you were the author.
But, Vincent, you are not the only person reading theses posts, and I do not write that just to say something to you.
Sorry if you understood that way.

 

[Spectator]

I always liked ZAMBOULA because of the melange of various cultures and "wild West" feel of it.
You got the Stygians, the Turanians, The Darfari, The Iranistani, The Zuagir, The Shemites, and the Sprinkling of Hyborians.

It probably is one of the most cosmopolitain cities on the continent (per capita).

It lends itself very well to skullduggery, sorcery, and duoble-crossing.

I kinda think it would be like a modern day Tijuana.

 

[tarkhan bey]

I was always surprised that Messantia was released as a boxed setting ahead of Zamboula. I suppose that it was down to the same decision makers who chose not to print a Hyrkania/Turan sourcebook when (virtually) the whole Conan Rpg community was rating it one of their most desired settings. :roll: I mean to say that, following on from Shadizar, this is probably the next most obvious city setting(at least to me).
Using this thread, I am hoping to prise out of Vincent anything that he might possibly have included if the setting had been optioned and him chosen as author. :lol:
I was working on a Cimmeria MRQ campaign but it seems to be retreading territory that I have previously covered in my Slaine MRQ campaign. I've decided instead to relocate my campaign to the Kharamun desert and exotic Zamboula. 8)

 

[VincentDarlage]

Its an interesting notion that many of the Darfari cannibals may have been born in captivity and goes a little way to explaining why they seem to be able to roam the streets freely at night. I don't know if I agree with the Turanians not taking many male prisoners though-who's gonna row those purple sailed war galleys?

Criminals. One problem I always had with the "Conan as a slave" plot that de Camp and other pastiche writers used is that no one in their right mind would enslave someone as strong and violent as Conan. It's just asking for trouble (the second problem is that Conan would rather die than be enslaved and would have to be killed. I don't recall any REH story where Conan was enslaved - because it wouldn't happen). Slavers did not take big, strong slaves. Any big strong slaves grew up as a slave and knew nothing else. Big strong warrior types are killed. (also a reason why slavers never bother to try and enslave PCs in my groups - they would also rather die, and would be too violent to trust as a slave).

I reckon that that big burly Darfari's are prime candidates for the rowing benches.

Only if they grew up enslaved and don't have a history of violence.

One more question, for the moment. Did you ever do a map of Zamboula?

I don't think so... at least not that I remember.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I was always surprised that Messantia was released as a boxed setting ahead of Zamboula.

IIRC, I think the person who wrote most of Messantia had submitted the text in order to get hired as a full time writer to show what he was capable of. I may be remembering wrong, but I seem to remember being told that once.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Sorry Vincent, one more question. How many men do you think that the Satrap would have in his bodyguard detachment?

His followers would be his bodyguard detachment. I think the statistics in my NPC file put it at an 8th level cohort; 100 1st level, 4 2nd level, 2 3rd level, 1 4th level followers.