VAS scale

[seldon]

I no there is no stipulated scale, but DM always brings up that the scale could be seen as 1"=1000 yards.

DM, I think you mentioned the time scale in the past, what is the take on time scale, ie. how long would a turn last. Is the speed of the ships and the rate of fire aligned or is one going faster than the other?

thanks
Seldon

 

[DM]

Assuming 1" = 1000 yards:

A 30 knot ship moves 60,000 yards in an hour, which is 60" in game terms.

A 30 knot ship moves 6" in a game turn

Therefore there are 10 game turns an hour so, based on that assumption, each turn is 6 minutes

Not that you would want to get too hung up on the timing, since (as I am often reminded) "its a ame not a simulation" and there is a long and illustriosu line of historical wargames that have set the time duration of the turns far longer than the apparent duration based on movement to take account of the "friction" of war (things always take longer in real life than they do in games for various reasons). Now thats not always a view I subscribe to in more hardware based situations such as naval (and air) but its a view nonetheless

That was a roundabout way of saying I don't want to get into endless debates about how reloading torpedoes should take 3/4/5 game turns! having played Armada period games and others where one had to keep track of reloding times on lots of ships I can say its realistic but apain to keep track of and so I think for a game like VAS its important to keep it simple - eitherset at 1 turn or use a Command Check.

 

[Chernobyl]

I'd stipulate that a 30 knot speed isn't equal to a speed 6 ship, but rather a speed 7 ship going "all ahead flank" at 10 inches...

I brought this up in another thread - the listed speed on the stats can't be the "maximum speed" of the ship. a special action can't make the ship suddenly go faster than physically possible. rather "all ahead flank" special action raises the speed to maximum. - under normal conditions the ship wouldnbe going much more than 2/3 this as fuel consumption rises dramatically at high speeds.

so, in your example, a speed 4 ship is actually a 30 knot ship - doing 20 knots. on all ahead flank, it move 6", or '30 knots'

I'll use the Iowa as an example. Since the Iowa is given a speed of 7 (10.5 flank speed) and is known to have a top speed of ~35 knots
that makes 1 inch of speed about 3.5 knots (rounded) - a ship traveling speed 6 would go about 21 knots, or 42,000 yards in an hour. The information I can find about the Mark 7 16" 50 Cal. gun gives it a maximum range of about 42,000 yards. (close enough to the 43" game range at 1" = 1000 yards)
at 6" per turn, it would take 7 turns to go 42 inches, making 1 turn about 1/7 of an hour, or a little under 9 minutes.

Chern

 

[Myrm]

If I may risk thread-crossover, DM has cited that IJN ships could reportedly turn around their torps in 20 minutes, which in a 10 minute turn would be 2 turns ie slow loading

How long did it take to refill Depth charge racks?

 

[Chernobyl]

or re-load torpedoes on a submarine? not 8 minutes I'll wager...

also, the firing rate of the Iowa is quoted at 2 per minute per main battery barrel. that's about 17 rounds per gun in 1 turn, or about 153 rounds total.

Chern

 

[seldon]

DM, I understand your comment about not getting into a system where you have to keep track of loading rates, I just wanted to know your take on the time scale to get general ideas on the game when thinking about house rules, so I appreciate the answer.

Chernobyl makes a great point, I'd love to see DM's take on that.

All in all thanks for the comments, it is very helpful !

Seldon

 

[mbtanker]

Interestingly Decision Games' 'Battlestations!' rules have turns of 30 minutes for day and 60 minutes for night. They also allow for reloads in just one turn. I've been reading folks complaining THAT is too fast as well!

I haven't paid too much attention I'm afraid, in either game, to how many torpedo mounts exist on a ship, how many tubes they have, and what a volley is supposed to be but is it possible a 'reload' is either a second round of shots from a mount or just another mount firing? In other words, is a torp 'shot' really 3 torps of 5 (for example) and the 'reload' the other two? Or is the 'reload' possibly a second mount firing?

 

[Chernobyl]

typically the number of mounts is already know from dated imagry, so I'm thnking it means more ammo, not more mounts. More mounts would approximate more AD or maybe multiple arc weapons.

Chern

 

[mbtanker]

Well the Fletcher DD had ten 21" torps in two 5-tube mounts. If I remember correctly, each mount could fire over either side. So is a torp shot in VaS all ten torps going out, just five, or fewer? If a shot is five or fewer than it makes sense it could fire again the next turn.

 

[mbtanker]

From WikiPedia

"The Japanese Navy outfitted many of its destroyers and cruisers with the Type 93 torpedo. The long range, speed, and heavy warhead of the Type 93 gave these warships a formidable punch. Most also carried reloads and equipment for rapidly inserting them into the tubes - a practice unique among navies of the era."

"The Type 93 was not without faults. They were highly unstable compared to the compressed air versions and a single explosion from one was enough to sink destroyers or heavily damage cruisers that carried them. As air raids became common, captains of destroyers under attack were faced with the decision of whether to ditch the torpedoes to better survive the air attack, or carry them to have much better odds against heavier or outnumbering opponents in surface battles. In surface battles, by the time the deck-mounted torpedo tubes were reloaded ready to launch a second wave of torpedoes, Allied ships were close enough to be able to use their torpedoes as well and the advantage of reloads was reduced. The reloading systems were not mechanically perfect causing occasional jams to become a hazard."

And from http://www.answers.com/topic/destroyer,
"The later Ariaki class of 1931 further improved the torpedo armament by storing its reload torpedoes close at hand in the superstructure, meaning reloading could be accomplished in 15 minutes."

 

[captainsmirk]

Presumably all ten as the Flectchers' torpedoes are one shot...

I believe most ships fired all their torpedo tubes in one salvo basically to achieve the maximum chance of hitting the target, in game the inability to cause the sort of damage 10 torpedoes hitting at once would produce is simple that you would never actually get all ten torpedoes to hit the same ship...



Nick

 

[mbtanker]

"Presumably all ten as the Flectchers' torpedoes are one shot... "

Sorry, I used the Fletcher as an example only because I'm familiar with the layout. The question would be for Japanese DDs with similar loadouts.

 

[mbtanker]

A note on time scale, 'Battle Stations!" uses 1"=1000yds with roughly the same movement distances and the game turns are stated as being 30 minute day turns and 60 minute night. 'General Quarters 3' has six minute turns but bases movement on only three minutes of time. In both cases the scales have been blurred for various game effects. Thus VaS has probably done the same.

 

[jfox61]

The problem with Japanese DD,s is that not all were one shot in fact the majority had multiple reloads. They were much bigger than say a typical hunt class or fletcher class. The japanese placed great emphasis on Torpedo warfare hence their proficiency at night battles with destroyer flotillas. I think they are simplified rules to further enhance the gunfire aspect of the game and the time scale is more abstract than more in depth rules and therefore not as relevant.