[v2.0] Skill Level Too Low

[Kilgs]

I just can't get over the fact that someone who is in their 30's can only be moderately skilled at their occupation, if at all. It's either the randomness or something else that I'm missing.

SUGGESTION:

Starting Skills of a Career (Service) at 1 (instead of 0).

This at least gives someone a chance to be competent at something that they do. I tried it with a few characters and it worked out well.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

It does seem strange that for their first few terms, a character is effectively useless at their career, more so if they don't receive promotions. A Space Marine with 8 or 12 years under their belt, could easily still only possess skills of Zero-G 0, Gun Cmbt 1, Vacc Suit 0 and no Battledress skill at all. Would you send him on a boarding action? The man would be a severe liability!

If a characters has zero level in a skill (Skill 0), then he has received basic training in that skill, but has little experience in using it.

Then again the marine would still perform better than a civilian without the basic training, but it does seem a little under-experienced for all those years of repetitive drill...

 

[Tychus]

A Space Marine with 8 or 12 years under their belt, could easily still only possess skills of Zero-G 0, Gun Cmbt 1, Vacc Suit 0 and no Battledress skill at all. Would you send him on a boarding action?

This marine probably didn't spend much time assigned to a line unit. Maybe he was on parade detail or the commo guy. Such are the vagaries of random generation.

Keep in mind that the untrained penalty is -3. Getting a skill from untrained to 0 is a huge improvement. I think it's mostly a perception issue. You could make untrained the baseline (0), set all the current 0 skills at +3, and change the target number to 11+. The probabilities are the same, but the +3 is more impressive on your character sheet than 0.

Also remember that you get two connection skills, which can be used to shore up your "core" skills if you didn't get much training in them during your term skill rolls.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Ok, here's a question which could provide a bit of fun!

Taking the Traveller skill levels as...

0 - Basic Training (doesn't normally use it)
1 - Competent (can perform everyday tasks)
2 - Professional (can earn an income from it)
3 - Expert (necessary for highest job positions)
4 - Master (famed at a corporation, educational or national level)
5+ World Class (the best there is)

...how would each of you rate your personal skills?

Here's mine (selected from the skill list in the playtest document)
Admin 1 (project manager)
Art 1 (writing)
Athletics 1 (Endurance - potholing, swimming, cycling and cross country skiing)
Carouse 1 (Background skill - British pub culture...)
Computer 3 (bespoke software programmer)
Drive 2 (Background skill - Snow covered Swedish roads!)
Language 1 (Swedish)
Leadership 2 (managerial experience)
Medic 0 (first aid & CPR qualified)
Melee 3 (blade combat - Knight & Royal peer of the SCA, plus other historical societies, etc)
Melee 1 (unarmed martial arts)
Science 2 (ancient and medieval history)
Science 1 (physics - half forgotten university education)
Seafarer 0 (sailing)
Survival 0 (basic training)
Tactics 2 (SCA battlefield command)

Unfortunately that's 21 skills, in the equivalent of 5.5 terms. About half are from university education and professional employment, and the rest are personal hobbies. I don't feel that the levels are unreasonable considering the guidelines of the playtest document, and the 20+ years I've been practicing and/or studying some of them.

Would anyone else like to try and define themselves, and include their number of terms to boot? The objective is to see if the number of skills an average middle-aged Roleplayer picks up are equivalent to what a PC of the Imperium learns! :wink:

 

[AKAramis]

Ok, here's a question which could provide a bit of fun!

Taking the Traveller skill levels as...

0 - Basic Training (doesn't normally use it)
1 - Competent (can perform everyday tasks)
2 - Professional (can earn an income from it)
3 - Expert (necessary for highest job positions)
4 - Master (famed at a corporation, educational or national level)
5+ World Class (the best there is)

You got the levels wrong.

Level 0 is competent.
Level 1 IS employable. (paramedic for medical)
Level 2 is low end professional (Nurse for medical)
Level 3 is high end professional (Doctor for Medical)
Level 4 is master
Level 5+ is world class.

At least, that's the scale in CT, and MT, which have roughly the same skill levels.

 

[Kilgs]

You got the levels wrong.

Level 0 is competent.
Level 1 IS employable. (paramedic for medical)
Level 2 is low end professional (Nurse for medical)
Level 3 is high end professional (Doctor for Medical)
Level 4 is master
Level 5+ is world class.

At least, that's the scale in CT, and MT, which have roughly the same skill levels.

I was just thinking about this earlier...

EDIT: Snipped

 

[Allensh]

Ok, here's a question which could provide a bit of fun!

Taking the Traveller skill levels as...

0 - Basic Training (doesn't normally use it)
1 - Competent (can perform everyday tasks)
2 - Professional (can earn an income from it)
3 - Expert (necessary for highest job positions)
4 - Master (famed at a corporation, educational or national level)
5+ World Class (the best there is)

You got the levels wrong.

Level 0 is competent.
Level 1 IS employable. (paramedic for medical)
Level 2 is low end professional (Nurse for medical)
Level 3 is high end professional (Doctor for Medical)
Level 4 is master
Level 5+ is world class.

At least, that's the scale in CT, and MT, which have roughly the same skill levels.

Mongoose Traveller, on page 47 of the 2.0 manuscript, says:

" A character with 0 levels in a skill has a basic understanding of the principles involved...a character with 1 or more levels has experience using that skill...a character with 2-3 levels would be a professional in that field; a character with 4-5 skill levels is an expert".

Mongoose Traveller seems to assume that pro level starts at 2.

Allen

 

[SableWyvern]

Mongoose Traveller seems to assume that pro level starts at 2.

The text makes that assumption; the mechanics are more consistent with AKAramis's system. I would suggest that the text be brought in line with that.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Mongoose Traveller seems to assume that pro level starts at 2.

The text makes that assumption; the mechanics are more consistent with AKAramis's system. I would suggest that the text be brought in line with that.

I definitely agree with that.

If the text was changed so that lvl 0 was competence, rather than 'basic understanding with no experience', then the skills gained from your Homeworld and 1st term Basic Training would make much more sense.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I just can't get over the fact that someone who is in their 30's can only be moderately skilled at their occupation, if at all. It's either the randomness or something else that I'm missing.

SUGGESTION:

Starting Skills of a Career (Service) at 1 (instead of 0).

This at least gives someone a chance to be competent at something that they do. I tried it with a few characters and it worked out well.

I think that you are missing the fact that:

- level 0 effectively gives you a 40+% chance of success.
- Level 1 gives you a 58% chance of success.
- Level 2 gives you a 72% chance of success.
- Level 3 gives you a 83% chance of success.
- Level 4 gives you a 91% chance of success.
- Level 5 gives you a 98% chance of success.
- Anything higher is automatic success.

The skill levels are perfect as they are.

 

[SableWyvern]

I think that you are missing the fact that:

- level 0 effectively gives you a 40+% chance of success.
- Level 1 gives you a 58% chance of success.
- Level 2 gives you a 72% chance of success.
- Level 3 gives you a 83% chance of success.
- Level 4 gives you a 91% chance of success.
- Level 5 gives you a 98% chance of success.
- Anything higher is automatic success.

The skill levels are perfect as they are.

Further to that, those chances are for tasks that present a "moderate obstacle to a trained professional", operating under dangerous, time-constrained or critical circumstances.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

The skill levels are perfect as they are.

I think the problem here is in the interpretation of what each level means, rather than the mathematical success progression.

" A character with 0 levels in a skill has a basic understanding of the principles involved...a character with 1 or more levels has experience using that skill...a character with 2-3 levels would be a professional in that field; a character with 4-5 skill levels is an expert"

For instance. Would you be happy to know that the international flight you've just boarded was being piloted by a rookie with "basic understanding of the principles involved" and no actual experience?

Using those precise words would set serious doubt in your mind on the pilot's competence...

Going back to a Traveller example, we could take the poor 1st term Marine grunt and kick him out of the airlock in a vacc suit and tell him to board a combat damaged pirate vessel. Technically after 4 years of training a Star Marine should be perfectly capable of performing such a task - there's something wrong with his military training if he can't.

Of course since he's not a vet, there's a very high chance of him becoming a casualty. But if his level 0 skills from Basic Training are literally "basic understanding of the principles involved" and no actual experience, then there is no way in hell the poor fool is going to survive the dangers involved! (*)

If, on the other hand, we can say that level 0 skills indicate competence, then I can visualise him surviving the experience.

Thus, its all in the descriptive text...

(*) Avoiding debris which will puncture his suit, enemy combatants firing at him, remain aware of his life support, be capable of repairing it under fire, perform a self powered maneuver across to the pirate ship, try to maintain orientation after weapon recoil, successfully fire his weapon at opponents and not accidentally shoot friends, etc, etc.

 

[Takei]

SUGGESTION:

Starting Skills of a Career (Service) at 1 (instead of 0).

This would make sense as most of us learn most of our skills earlier in life. That's my experience anyway.

 

[AKAramis]

The skill levels are perfect as they are.

I think the problem here is in the interpretation of what each level means, rather than the mathematical success progression.

" A character with 0 levels in a skill has a basic understanding of the principles involved...a character with 1 or more levels has experience using that skill...a character with 2-3 levels would be a professional in that field; a character with 4-5 skill levels is an expert"

For instance. Would you be happy to know that the international flight you've just boarded was being piloted by a rookie with "basic understanding of the principles involved" and no actual experience?

Using those precise words would set serious doubt in your mind on the pilot's competence...

[snip]

If, on the other hand, we can say that level 0 skills indicate competence, then I can visualise him surviving the experience.

Thus, its all in the descriptive text...

Given th +2 for routine tasks, and knowing that landing is routine, and normal flight trivial... level 0 is adequate, and 1 employable....

The descriptive text needs to conform to the rules materials.

See, in CT and MT, level 1 was sufficient to be hired as a paid crewman on a starship and to hold "qualification" endorsements.

 

[Exwrestler]

I fully agree that the terminology need to be adjusted to reflect actual competence (and the skill levels of new characters).

The current use of the word "professional" may work if your refering to a professional athlete (this level of skill and a stat bonus make you better than most people who have this skill) but it doesn't work at all for a professional soldier, professional welder, professional pilot, etc.

 

[pasuuli]

Athletics-0 (I can juggle)
Art-1 (percussion)
Computers-3
Drive-0
Gambler-0
Language-0
Science-0 (Archeology)

5 terms.

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

Level 2 is low end professional (Nurse for medical)

... being a RN myself, I would argue violently against that description.....

But, yes, in terms of CT, Aramis is correct: the table he posted is right with regards to the description of skill levels in relation to tasks/DMs etc.

 

[AKAramis]

Level 2 is low end professional (Nurse for medical)

... being a RN myself, I would argue violently against that description.....

But, yes, in terms of CT, Aramis is correct: the table he posted is right with regards to the description of skill levels in relation to tasks/DMs etc.

Which is why I'm now suggesting an option to make medical specialized:

Medical (Trauma Aid): Includes first aid and "meatball surgery"
Medical (Patient Care): Includes changing of dressings, administering medicine, moving patients, etc.
Medical (Surgery) All manner of cut & stitch. Overlaps somewhat with Trauma Aid and cybernetics.
Medical (Pharmacology) Prescribing, dosing, mixing, and administering medications.
Medical (Diagnostics): Various means of diagnosing diseases and non-traumatic injuries.
Medical (Cybernetics): Maintenance, prescription, and installation of cybernetic implants. Yes, some overlap with surgery.

It's one of those areas where one skill is VERY broad, but the resultant specializations are definitely a bit narrower than most gamers will use, but relevant enough that it belongs in the core.

Makes me think of Mercy Point... (a short run UPN series set on a medical station modeled vaguely on the concept "DS9 Meets ER... DS911..." (UPN internal memo, 1998).

 

[SableWyvern]

Given a 0-level skill covering all of this, I think it's a workable suggestion.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I like how the mechanics and propabilities work out. Just tweak the phrasing a bit.

Keep in mind that some characters will have a stat bonus to add to their dice throws, which is huge for a 2D6 roll