UWP Real or Not???

MonkeyX

Banded Mongoose
Sigtrygg said:
Do you know what one of my earliest Traveller disappointments was?

Opening S:3 The Spinward Marches to see that there was a TL16 world, Darrian. Ok it was described as old etc, but it is TL 16. Just imagine all of those new toys a group of Travellers could get hold of.

Then we find out Darrian has a true TL of 13 to 15, buys a lot of stuff from the Imperium at TL15, and only possesses relic TL16 stuff and can't make any more so Travellers are out of luck.

Cordon does the opposite. That’s a fairly low tech level (5 or 6 I think) but it mentions the upper class have access to better tech but again it’s just in the Cordon Conflict adventure this is mentioned. I understand that the rich would but imported tech but which one do you use on the UWP and which is the footnote?
 

MasterGwydion

Banded Mongoose
MonkeyX said:
Sigtrygg said:
Do you know what one of my earliest Traveller disappointments was?

Opening S:3 The Spinward Marches to see that there was a TL16 world, Darrian. Ok it was described as old etc, but it is TL 16. Just imagine all of those new toys a group of Travellers could get hold of.

Then we find out Darrian has a true TL of 13 to 15, buys a lot of stuff from the Imperium at TL15, and only possesses relic TL16 stuff and can't make any more so Travellers are out of luck.

Cordon does the opposite. That’s a fairly low tech level (5 or 6 I think) but it mentions the upper class have access to better tech but again it’s just in the Cordon Conflict adventure this is mentioned. I understand that the rich would but imported tech but which one do you use on the UWP and which is the footnote?

Cordan has a Population UWP of 3, but this is described as only being the baronial households and not the general population. So what is the actual planetary population?
 

MasterGwydion

Banded Mongoose
Condottiere said:
Possibly the size of the potential customer base.

I don't keep track on Dungeon and Dragon sales figures, though I understand it's going through a resurgence, but supposedly large enough to support various other publishers and their writing staffs in bringing out supplementary material, if not, I suppose, licensed to produce more material on existing settings.

Chartered space is fairly large, and probably at best, you can generalize about what's going on, or focus narrowly on certain areas and events.

Certain aspects of Traveller, such as hardware, are fair game, for more intensive scrutiny.

What does this have to do with accurate UWP codes?
 

Geir

Banded Mongoose
MasterGwydion said:
Condottiere said:
Possibly the size of the potential customer base.

I don't keep track on Dungeon and Dragon sales figures, though I understand it's going through a resurgence, but supposedly large enough to support various other publishers and their writing staffs in bringing out supplementary material, if not, I suppose, licensed to produce more material on existing settings.

Chartered space is fairly large, and probably at best, you can generalize about what's going on, or focus narrowly on certain areas and events.

Certain aspects of Traveller, such as hardware, are fair game, for more intensive scrutiny.

What does this have to do with accurate UWP codes?

Disturbingly, I am sometimes able to follow Condottiere's logic (whether from constant exposure or delusion on my part I'm not sure). I think the point is that not enough of us 'lazy writers' exist for the relatively small Traveller ecosystem, so much remains only poorly defined.

I'm of two minds (or lost minds) on the accuracy of UWPs. Since I just finished writing an economics section for the World Builder's Handbook, it's clear that bad figures for population and tech levels make for formulas that just can't work right, so it would be nice if all data was accurate. On that same mind, I was a little annoyed to look at the Briefing book for Umemii a few years back and find a TL12 space navy embedded in a TL7 world. Would have been nice to know ahead of time, as you'd think it would be a dominant fact for the Borderland cluster, and not something mentioned in an obscure briefing file.

On the other hand (mind, whatever) most adventure modules begin with the disclaimer similar to 'Library data may be out of date, misleading or just plain wrong - but here's the real story' . It is the story that you're buying and making the story fit precisely into someone else's universe can be tough (and I think to Condottiere's probable point there is a limited pool of writers and even smaller pool of fact-checkers and editors). I can't see an excuse for UWP data being wrong inside the Third Imperium, but outside, well, just thinking about the US Census. I've had forms sent to me in the mail that I fill out that weren't checked, and back in 2010, I had census people come to my door insisting on checking for the boarders living in the basement (in 1990 maybe?), when I know that in April 2000 when I owned the house all we had in the basement was a couple of cats. So when the scouts came to Cordon in 1060-something and sent down their team, they probably got a nice reception from the powers-that-were, who helpfully filled out the forms for all the 'people of import'. PoD was built up over time, with different authors for the beginning - which probably included the sector data, but even there 'mistakes were made' - and for the follow-up add-ons.

Yes, I know it can be frustrating (hey, I just sent in a rant about the map of Regina in SotA not being canon) but it is part of the job description of the not-lazy referee to figure out how to interpret and present the material.
 

MasterGwydion

Banded Mongoose
Geir said:
MasterGwydion said:
Condottiere said:
Possibly the size of the potential customer base.

I don't keep track on Dungeon and Dragon sales figures, though I understand it's going through a resurgence, but supposedly large enough to support various other publishers and their writing staffs in bringing out supplementary material, if not, I suppose, licensed to produce more material on existing settings.

Chartered space is fairly large, and probably at best, you can generalize about what's going on, or focus narrowly on certain areas and events.

Certain aspects of Traveller, such as hardware, are fair game, for more intensive scrutiny.

What does this have to do with accurate UWP codes?

Disturbingly, I am sometimes able to follow Condottiere's logic (whether from constant exposure or delusion on my part I'm not sure). I think the point is that not enough of us 'lazy writers' exist for the relatively small Traveller ecosystem, so much remains only poorly defined.

I'm of two minds (or lost minds) on the accuracy of UWPs. Since I just finished writing an economics section for the World Builder's Handbook, it's clear that bad figures for population and tech levels make for formulas that just can't work right, so it would be nice if all data was accurate. On that same mind, I was a little annoyed to look at the Briefing book for Umemii a few years back and find a TL12 space navy embedded in a TL7 world. Would have been nice to know ahead of time, as you'd think it would be a dominant fact for the Borderland cluster, and not something mentioned in an obscure briefing file.

On the other hand (mind, whatever) most adventure modules begin with the disclaimer similar to 'Library data may be out of date, misleading or just plain wrong - but here's the real story' . It is the story that you're buying and making the story fit precisely into someone else's universe can be tough (and I think to Condottiere's probable point there is a limited pool of writers and even smaller pool of fact-checkers and editors). I can't see an excuse for UWP data being wrong inside the Third Imperium, but outside, well, just thinking about the US Census. I've had forms sent to me in the mail that I fill out that weren't checked, and back in 2010, I had census people come to my door insisting on checking for the boarders living in the basement (in 1990 maybe?), when I know that in April 2000 when I owned the house all we had in the basement was a couple of cats. So when the scouts came to Cordon in 1060-something and sent down their team, they probably got a nice reception from the powers-that-were, who helpfully filled out the forms for all the 'people of import'. PoD was built up over time, with different authors for the beginning - which probably included the sector data, but even there 'mistakes were made' - and for the follow-up add-ons.

Yes, I know it can be frustrating (hey, I just sent in a rant about the map of Regina in SotA not being canon) but it is part of the job description of the not-lazy referee to figure out how to interpret and present the material.

I agree completely with what you have said. My problem is that UWP needs to either be a mechanic or fluff. If the UWP is used as a mechanic with other data, then it must be accurate in order to run a game. If it is fluff, then it doesn't matter, but then I need a new universal metric to use for the mechanics. The simplest solution would be to simply update the UWPs to match what the written material says in its latest incarnation, but I thought that was what it meant to be T5SS compliant, but perhaps I misunderstood that part.
 

Condottiere

Cosmic Mongoose
1. You could consider that the original code is accurate, at least at the time of publication, whether Third Imperium or Anno Domini.

2. If later publications contradict the code, setting aside typographical errors, it could be a natural drift in the circumstances on the planet.

3. Depending on the degree of the drift, and the time period involved.

4. If the drift cannot be reconciled, something drastic has happened dirtside.

5. Or the original code is mostly inaccurate, whether by administrative error, or a deliberate attempt to conceal something.

6. Plot point!
 
UWP's are the product of an RNG. They often don't make a lot of sense.
This can be fun explaining why a world which apparently makes no sense exists. It can also be a problem when you are creating a campaign and want to use some part of the OTU for the game for whatever reasons but then find that some worlds nearby are not suited for what you want , a GM can change that easily in their own game but given the wide sources for the published OTU a published campaign has to live with the published stats and then finesse them to make an interesting world suitable for a campaign.
Sometimes this manipulation is enought to catch someone out, if you are running a published campaign you probably need to stick with what the campaign suggests if it is a game set in the same area as the campaign then use whichever version is most fun.
I tell my players what a world is like when they enquire based on the UWP and my game notes.

You do come across some oddities which are problematic based on physical characteristics of worlds such as atmosphere or hydrosphere not corresponding with the text. I could live with just changing thsese but the traveller map is so convenient to use in game , and I can't edit it as its a global resource (I know I can produce a modified file but that lacks the same convenience)
So it comes down to the UWP being 7 numbers and a letter to describe an incredibly complicated object (an inhabited world) given that is just totally inadequate to describe a world I see no reason to treat a UWP as a straitjacked on creativly makeing a world a fun part of a campaign.
For example Tobia A544A55-F and Drinishok A 1 0 0 4 0 0 – F clearly the star port and tech level do not mean the same for both of these worlds. one is an indistrial powerhouse one if a small town pretending to be a planet , one would not expect Drinishock to build Tigress class dreadnoughts but you would expect Tobia to.
A 5 9 4 6 6 A – C is the profile of Depot , Vland. This clearly does not describe the technological and industrial resources of the Depot itself as that is a major fleet base capable of building and repairing TL-15 Capital ships.

Pick either the local description you like or the UWP and see what fits your campaign best. In many respects the fact that such a large area has detailed but random stats is actually more of a problem than an advantage when designing campaigns or scenario's as it can be hard to find an area that fits your theme. The last time I designed an area for a campaign I just ignored canon and the RNG and wrote up the worlds I wanted randomly rollling a few extras wound the edge and fudging them as needed.

An even more rambling post than expected, apologies
 

CordwainerFish

Mongoose
And at the end of the day all published materiel is just ink on paper (or ones and zeros). Go ahead and alter it to fit; the Tavrchedl' won't come for you.
 

MasterGwydion

Banded Mongoose
CordwainerFish said:
And at the end of the day all published materiel is just ink on paper (or ones and zeros). Go ahead and alter it to fit; the Tavrchedl' won't come for you.

Right, and by this logic, there is no game to play as nothing exists. So.... Not helpful...
 

MasterGwydion

Banded Mongoose
Andrewmoreton said:
UWP's are the product of an RNG. They often don't make a lot of sense.
This can be fun explaining why a world which apparently makes no sense exists. It can also be a problem when you are creating a campaign and want to use some part of the OTU for the game for whatever reasons but then find that some worlds nearby are not suited for what you want , a GM can change that easily in their own game but given the wide sources for the published OTU a published campaign has to live with the published stats and then finesse them to make an interesting world suitable for a campaign.
Sometimes this manipulation is enought to catch someone out, if you are running a published campaign you probably need to stick with what the campaign suggests if it is a game set in the same area as the campaign then use whichever version is most fun.
I tell my players what a world is like when they enquire based on the UWP and my game notes.

You do come across some oddities which are problematic based on physical characteristics of worlds such as atmosphere or hydrosphere not corresponding with the text. I could live with just changing thsese but the traveller map is so convenient to use in game , and I can't edit it as its a global resource (I know I can produce a modified file but that lacks the same convenience)
So it comes down to the UWP being 7 numbers and a letter to describe an incredibly complicated object (an inhabited world) given that is just totally inadequate to describe a world I see no reason to treat a UWP as a straitjacked on creativly makeing a world a fun part of a campaign.
For example Tobia A544A55-F and Drinishok A 1 0 0 4 0 0 – F clearly the star port and tech level do not mean the same for both of these worlds. one is an indistrial powerhouse one if a small town pretending to be a planet , one would not expect Drinishock to build Tigress class dreadnoughts but you would expect Tobia to.
A 5 9 4 6 6 A – C is the profile of Depot , Vland. This clearly does not describe the technological and industrial resources of the Depot itself as that is a major fleet base capable of building and repairing TL-15 Capital ships.

Pick either the local description you like or the UWP and see what fits your campaign best. In many respects the fact that such a large area has detailed but random stats is actually more of a problem than an advantage when designing campaigns or scenario's as it can be hard to find an area that fits your theme. The last time I designed an area for a campaign I just ignored canon and the RNG and wrote up the worlds I wanted randomly rollling a few extras wound the edge and fudging them as needed.

An even more rambling post than expected, apologies

If I want to play in the OTU, then I should just be able to play with the Travellermap UWP for all of My calculations, the T5SS compliant ones anyhow... The UWP is a straightjacket. It is supposed to be, in that is restricts what is possible for the majority of the planet.Of course, there are exceptions within the planetary minorities. If you want to change it, then change it in YTU. Interpreting, how those UWP codes relate, such as in your example, both Tobia and Drinishok are TL-F and have Class-A Starports. I would consider the Drinshok numbers to reflect a situation where everyone lives and works in the highport/shipyard. Where as shipbuilding is a much larger part of Drinishok's economy than Tobia's, since most of the population must work there in order to be considered a Class-A starport with the current definition of a Class-A Starport as a "huge, sprawling, shipyard". I prefer a definition, that allows for a 300-ton shipyard that can only build 100 starships, to also be considered a Class-A starport. A 300-ton Shipyard only requires a crew of 30 sophonts.

I have a larger problem with any Imperial Depot that is not listed as TL-F and a Class-A Starport, since depots are supposed to be the primary military ship construction and maintenance locations of the 3rd Imperium.

My issue is, either the UWP is an out of game mechanic and therefore must always be accurate, or it is an in game database and can therefore be entirely false without consequence as it has no mechanical effect of the game. (Well... no mechanical effect outside of informing the Ref that you are jumping to a starsystem that exists only their starchart and not in the OTU...lol...)

This seems to be a good place to discuss this as most of the people who are writing, editing, or otherwise working to improve and expand Our beloved OTU. Maybe some kind of consensus can be reached for future publications and internet content (the travellermap, which is the coolest collection "OTU" data ever, btw!!!). Since I do a lot of worldbuilding, I mainly enjoy taking the existing ideas/data and expanding upon it for MTU and that is very difficult to keep MTU true to the OTU, when the several items in the most recently published material doesn't match the UWP within the same material.
 
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