USS Colorado
- Thread starter Chernobyl
- Start date
chaos0xomega
Mongoose
Taking a guess(its a longshot), but maybe the colorado doesn't fire AP shells? Thats my best guess.
Fitzwalrus
Mongoose
All BB guns had some form of AP round, but there may be a difference in the gun model between the Colorados and the later US BB's, even though both are 16"/45's.
An improved round may have been developed for the later guns that the Colorados couldn't use, or there may have been some other factor.
(Or, it could be a typo.
)
I'll dig into my references this evening and see what I can find....
An improved round may have been developed for the later guns that the Colorados couldn't use, or there may have been some other factor.
(Or, it could be a typo.
)I'll dig into my references this evening and see what I can find....
I think the case is like what's being suggested- the Colorado's 16"/45 guns were of an older model than the North Carolina's or South Dakotas (by SoDak here I mean BB-57 not the uncompleted BB-49). I am doing my own research regarding ships of this period, so here is what I have to offer so far- For the "short" answer, see DM's quote above :wink: .
Chernobyl, you've opened up a small can of worms here, so read on but remember worms are good protein, lol.
USS Colorado (as built) main guns were the 16"/45 Mark 1.
AP Projectile Type and Weight: AP Mark 3 - 2,110 lbs. (957.1 kg)
Muzzle Velocity: AP Mark 3 - 2,600 fps (792 mps)
In the 1930's modernization, these same guns were rebuilt and redesignated as 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 5 and Mark 8.
The major difference from the Mark 1 gun was the redesign of the chamber to permit larger charges. A later version, the Mark 8, was similar except that rifling was uniform and the bore was chromium plated for increased life. These ships could not fire the "super-heavy" 2,700 pound (1,224.7 kg) AP Mark 8 projectile, as that shell was too heavy and too long for their handling equipment. However, in the late 1930s they were given the 2,240 lbs. (1,016 kg) AP Mark 5, which was a heavier projectile with better armor piercing capability than the 2,110 lbs. (957.1 kg) AP Mark 3 that was originally issued.
USS Colorado (as re-built) main guns were the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 5 and Mark 8.
AP Projectile Type and Weight: AP Mark 5 - 2,240 lbs. (1,016 kg)
Muzzle Velocity: AP Mark 5 - 2,520 fps (768 mps)
The AP Mark 5 was a major change to a hard-capped, sheath-hardened AP projectile that could penetrate caliber-thickness face-hardened armor at 30 to 40 degree obliquity (this was its test specification).
The AP Mark 5 projectiles were designed to be used in long-range gun actions against Japanese ships ("Plan Orange") and for that reason they were to be fired at relatively low muzzle velocities and high gun elevations. These conditions would result in a steeper angle of fall in order to enhance their deck armor penetration capabilities.
So what you have here is a deliberate attempt at re-tooling a gun to fight a specific foe :shock: . Read on, please.
USS North Carolina main guns were the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 6.
AP Projectile Type and Weight: AP Mark 8 - 2,700 lbs. (1,225 kg)
Muzzle Velocity: AP - 2,300 fps (701 mps)
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The basic lesson from this is that there are differences in "bullets" of the same diameter class. Luckily for a game such as VaS, detail such as this "ain't needed" but it sure is interesting as trivia though. :wink:
Chernobyl, you've opened up a small can of worms here, so read on but remember worms are good protein, lol.
USS Colorado (as built) main guns were the 16"/45 Mark 1.
AP Projectile Type and Weight: AP Mark 3 - 2,110 lbs. (957.1 kg)
Muzzle Velocity: AP Mark 3 - 2,600 fps (792 mps)
In the 1930's modernization, these same guns were rebuilt and redesignated as 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 5 and Mark 8.
The major difference from the Mark 1 gun was the redesign of the chamber to permit larger charges. A later version, the Mark 8, was similar except that rifling was uniform and the bore was chromium plated for increased life. These ships could not fire the "super-heavy" 2,700 pound (1,224.7 kg) AP Mark 8 projectile, as that shell was too heavy and too long for their handling equipment. However, in the late 1930s they were given the 2,240 lbs. (1,016 kg) AP Mark 5, which was a heavier projectile with better armor piercing capability than the 2,110 lbs. (957.1 kg) AP Mark 3 that was originally issued.
USS Colorado (as re-built) main guns were the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 5 and Mark 8.
AP Projectile Type and Weight: AP Mark 5 - 2,240 lbs. (1,016 kg)
Muzzle Velocity: AP Mark 5 - 2,520 fps (768 mps)
The AP Mark 5 was a major change to a hard-capped, sheath-hardened AP projectile that could penetrate caliber-thickness face-hardened armor at 30 to 40 degree obliquity (this was its test specification).
The AP Mark 5 projectiles were designed to be used in long-range gun actions against Japanese ships ("Plan Orange") and for that reason they were to be fired at relatively low muzzle velocities and high gun elevations. These conditions would result in a steeper angle of fall in order to enhance their deck armor penetration capabilities.
So what you have here is a deliberate attempt at re-tooling a gun to fight a specific foe :shock: . Read on, please.
USS North Carolina main guns were the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 6.
AP Projectile Type and Weight: AP Mark 8 - 2,700 lbs. (1,225 kg)
Muzzle Velocity: AP - 2,300 fps (701 mps)
----------
The basic lesson from this is that there are differences in "bullets" of the same diameter class. Luckily for a game such as VaS, detail such as this "ain't needed" but it sure is interesting as trivia though. :wink:
Well, if not given the SAP trait I'd argue that its harly worth the War PL designation. The other ships in the war class are faster, have better specials, more damage and crew, and the SAP on the big guns.
about the only argument to keep the colorado in the War bracket is the 3DD that its main battery is given. its a little stronger than a New York but I'd say overall it compares betteer to that ship than to a SD, NC, or IA class.
Chern
about the only argument to keep the colorado in the War bracket is the 3DD that its main battery is given. its a little stronger than a New York but I'd say overall it compares betteer to that ship than to a SD, NC, or IA class.
Chern
Chernobyl said:
I should be getting some VaS rules in my store soon, btw so I won't be as "in the dark" on the base rules. Iirc, the Colorado was only around 21 kts. in speed, wasn't it? OK for a dreadnought in the 1920's but a slow "pig-nought" in the late 30's I'd say. The class was basically a Tennesse class repeat with dual-16" subtituted for triple-14" turrets. One extra thing I'll toss into my above long-winded "trivia-lovers" answer is that the 2700 lb. AP projectile of the Iowa was almost 1,000 lbs. heavier than the 15" AP shell of the Bismarck. That's what I call contrast. :wink:
Court Jester
Mongoose
The Royal Navy has the same sort of disparity between her War choices. I guess in scenario games it will matter but all tourniament fleets will be carbon copies.
Unless of course Mongoose has some sort of crazy tournament plan... :shock:
Unless of course Mongoose has some sort of crazy tournament plan... :shock:
DM said:
I get told off for being too technical, simulationist and geeky of I post long answers
Well, now that they know that I like to pour out drivel, I can provide some cover and distraction for you to expand your salvoes, heh. :twisted:
One of the pleasant side effects at digging a little on the web to refresh what I'd read for years (I have more than a few books on my shelves) is that I can always pick up something new that I hadn't known of before. Tonight was that bit about the main guns of the Colorado class that were rebuilt and AP shells that were specifically made for Japanese deck defences. It looked as if Plan Orange was alive and well and in somebody's front part of their file cabinet. As something that I knew in years past but refreshed through rebrowsing my materials I was reminded of how history might have changed with a slight course correction of two ships maybe missing submerged rocks that might have made an important difference in the early Pacific battles. The HMS Indomitable might have saved the fate of the Prince of Wales and Repulse by providing needed air cover and the USS Boise maybe not missing out on the Battle of the Java Sea.
