Ugly cover for Lankhmar
- Thread starter Enpeze
- Start date
iamtim said:
I agree that art is important but not overriding. Yet it is still important, especially when it subtracts from the finished product.
Dour art in a book is like a monotone voice when giving a speech.
I can cope with the mixed levels of art in MRQ (some of which is very good). But for cover art and trolls (not showing my bias at all here) I feel you need to get it right.
On the flip side it does open up a market for someone who can produce a decent dusk jacket for the book!
Tim's been over at RPG.Net, where this quite a bit of vitriol going on. The reaction is very negative, and some are even extrapolating about the quality of the text based on the cover.
Did I just use extrapolating? I even spelled it right the fist time. I sure hope I used it right.
But I digress. I basically agree with the 'It just the art for chrissakes' point of view (I mean it is not like the artist painted Fahfred with a pig snout). But I guess it also clear that the piece in question turns some people off to the point that they will hold it against the product as a whole. Which is too bad.
Did I just use extrapolating? I even spelled it right the fist time. I sure hope I used it right.
But I digress. I basically agree with the 'It just the art for chrissakes' point of view (I mean it is not like the artist painted Fahfred with a pig snout). But I guess it also clear that the piece in question turns some people off to the point that they will hold it against the product as a whole. Which is too bad.
The cover is an important part of any book, as is the cover of a CD, DVD or any other product.
Else, why put any cover at all ?
Remember that it's the first thing a customer will see, and hopefully not the only thing he'll ever see.
And honestly, the one we're talking about is really not something that please the eye.
Check the old one from TSR here: http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/lm/lm-coa1.htm
W.
Else, why put any cover at all ?
Remember that it's the first thing a customer will see, and hopefully not the only thing he'll ever see.
And honestly, the one we're talking about is really not something that please the eye.
Check the old one from TSR here: http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/lm/lm-coa1.htm
W.
warzen said:
I find that 9the TSR cover) very generic fantasy game art. Well done and very, well, safe.
I realize the cover is important, but I for one hated the Glorantha 2A cover. Not so much as a piece of art mind you, but as a portrayal of Glorantha. But GSA is easily the strongest title in the MRQ line so far, a great read and an excellent supplement, as both a Gloranthan sourcebook and a game supplement in general.
I kinda liked the cover of Lankhmar when I first saw it. I was not blown away by the artists technical ability at reproducing the human anatomy to perfection, but I liked the overall composition and mood of the piece.
But then, I've never read Leiber. I always kind of associate Lankmar with Theives World, which I have read. Could be totally off, but we humans tend to associate what we don't know with what we do (as compared to Uz, who tend to associate what they don't know with food). Either way, I liked the dark mood of the cover.
I'm not saying I love the piece, or that it belongs in the Louvre, but It doesn't turn me off, and I'm certainly not going to judge the book by it's cover.
And remember, Picasso had some problems when it came to faithfully reproducing human anatomy as well. :wink:
Neo
Mongoose
I have to say, for myself Art is a big factor in whether or not I will buy a product. (though possibly not qwuite so much as it once was)
Like many people I assume, when I see a book I only have its appearance, the blurb on the back and in the few rare instance when a book isnt shrinkwrapped or selophane sealed a brief flick through.. I dont get to "READ" it until I get it home..so in that way the appearance for me plays a major part, as I simply would not pick a book up if the cover doesnt draw me to it, and I dont get draw into the reading unless the interior art piques my curiosity and imagination enough to "want" to do so.
So I guess I am one of those people that finds Art VERY important initially as a springboard into encouraging me to check the writing out.
Over the last several years where I have been playtesting for numerous companies I have relaxed that trend somewhat as I tend to have to deal with manuscripts of JUST text every week these days which we have to go through and test on merit with no visual candy to inspire us... but I am still to some degree a stickler for a pretty book, it is much MUCH more likely to get my interest than a bland one.
Take Earthdawn for example, perhaps one of the best non d20 systems I have come across in years (and undoubtedly was in part some of the inspiration for D20 as some of similarities 3.0 introduced to D20 are undenaible) but I never looked at this game for the longest time as the cover was just awful...
I think folks would be naieve to think Art is not important, because it undoubtedly is.
As for the Lankhmar books shown cover.. it doesnt do much for me I have to say, but I also have the benefit in this instance of knowing ahead of time that the content is good and well written. However that thumbnail is not necessarily the final cover, it may well just be a placeholder.. many times the thumbnails shown on the site are NOT the final covers.
Folks will just have to wait and see, check out the previews when they appoear, read the reviews and determine at that time whether or not a cover is enough to deter them at the end of the day.
Like many people I assume, when I see a book I only have its appearance, the blurb on the back and in the few rare instance when a book isnt shrinkwrapped or selophane sealed a brief flick through.. I dont get to "READ" it until I get it home..so in that way the appearance for me plays a major part, as I simply would not pick a book up if the cover doesnt draw me to it, and I dont get draw into the reading unless the interior art piques my curiosity and imagination enough to "want" to do so.
So I guess I am one of those people that finds Art VERY important initially as a springboard into encouraging me to check the writing out.
Over the last several years where I have been playtesting for numerous companies I have relaxed that trend somewhat as I tend to have to deal with manuscripts of JUST text every week these days which we have to go through and test on merit with no visual candy to inspire us... but I am still to some degree a stickler for a pretty book, it is much MUCH more likely to get my interest than a bland one.
Take Earthdawn for example, perhaps one of the best non d20 systems I have come across in years (and undoubtedly was in part some of the inspiration for D20 as some of similarities 3.0 introduced to D20 are undenaible) but I never looked at this game for the longest time as the cover was just awful...
I think folks would be naieve to think Art is not important, because it undoubtedly is.
As for the Lankhmar books shown cover.. it doesnt do much for me I have to say, but I also have the benefit in this instance of knowing ahead of time that the content is good and well written. However that thumbnail is not necessarily the final cover, it may well just be a placeholder.. many times the thumbnails shown on the site are NOT the final covers.
Folks will just have to wait and see, check out the previews when they appoear, read the reviews and determine at that time whether or not a cover is enough to deter them at the end of the day.
I have absolutely no doubt that Lankhmar will be a brilliant book. I think it will be the very best treatment of Leiber's stories for role-playing to date. Aaron/DBC* is an erudite and insightful writer, and he really really does give a shit about everything he writes. I wish more writers had his attitude, and I'm sure a lot of writers out there wish they had his talent.
I also have absolutely no doubt that the quality of the writing is not reflected in the quality of the art on the cover.
I'm an illustrator, and I get paid to illustrate. Mostly corporate stuff - it is varied and pays well. When I started out, as a teenager, I exclusively drew SF&F/Horror illos, and I tried a lot of pro markets and I was rejected, frequently and often. As I started to get better, the rejections got more constructive.
I was once rejected by Jon Blanche of GW, a long old time ago. I was 16. He said: "You show promise, but you're not good enough - yet. If you don't know WHY you're not good enough, that's WHY you aren't good enough. Keep trying!"
That, I can tell you, smarted like hell. I thought: 'you arrogant get!' But I swallowed it and carried on. As I carried on, I realised what he meant. I wasn't ready yet. But then I started to see and realise what I was missing. And it made me work harder. Eventually, I started getting paid for my work. And I've been paid for a long old time, now. I even get to commission other artists' work.
When I look at the Lankmar cover art, I see a talent that isn't ready yet. The artist shows a lot of promise, but he or she is not 'there' yet. They will be, if they keep working, but not yet.** I'm not going to critique the art, I'll just offer the same advice Mr Blanche offered me.
And it's a shame. Because I'm sure Aaron/DBC went through the exact same process as a writer. I'm sure he was rejected at first, but kept at it and kept going until he is where he is now.
Which brings me to my point. This brilliant book (and I say that unseen, but I have seen this guy's writing before, and snippets of this very book on this very forum) deserves some brilliant art - inside and out.
For you guys who don't care about the art - fine. Different strokes for different folks etc. But just because you don't care, doesn't mean other people don't. For me, the artwork for RPGs is as important as the text. Both EVOKE. And although one without the other can do a great job, the two working together is just sublime.
- Q
* I am amused to realise that DBC, as well as standing for Dead Blue Clown, is also the initials for a very intiguing writer for whom they stand for 'Dirty But Clean'.
** There's a distinct possibility the artist in question has succeeded for some time. In such a case, I would be intrigued to hear how they felt about this piece in particular.
*** I realise there is no three star entry above. I just wanted to stress: this is only my opinion, and everyone is entitled to one.
I also have absolutely no doubt that the quality of the writing is not reflected in the quality of the art on the cover.
I'm an illustrator, and I get paid to illustrate. Mostly corporate stuff - it is varied and pays well. When I started out, as a teenager, I exclusively drew SF&F/Horror illos, and I tried a lot of pro markets and I was rejected, frequently and often. As I started to get better, the rejections got more constructive.
I was once rejected by Jon Blanche of GW, a long old time ago. I was 16. He said: "You show promise, but you're not good enough - yet. If you don't know WHY you're not good enough, that's WHY you aren't good enough. Keep trying!"
That, I can tell you, smarted like hell. I thought: 'you arrogant get!' But I swallowed it and carried on. As I carried on, I realised what he meant. I wasn't ready yet. But then I started to see and realise what I was missing. And it made me work harder. Eventually, I started getting paid for my work. And I've been paid for a long old time, now. I even get to commission other artists' work.
When I look at the Lankmar cover art, I see a talent that isn't ready yet. The artist shows a lot of promise, but he or she is not 'there' yet. They will be, if they keep working, but not yet.** I'm not going to critique the art, I'll just offer the same advice Mr Blanche offered me.
And it's a shame. Because I'm sure Aaron/DBC went through the exact same process as a writer. I'm sure he was rejected at first, but kept at it and kept going until he is where he is now.
Which brings me to my point. This brilliant book (and I say that unseen, but I have seen this guy's writing before, and snippets of this very book on this very forum) deserves some brilliant art - inside and out.
For you guys who don't care about the art - fine. Different strokes for different folks etc. But just because you don't care, doesn't mean other people don't. For me, the artwork for RPGs is as important as the text. Both EVOKE. And although one without the other can do a great job, the two working together is just sublime.
- Q
* I am amused to realise that DBC, as well as standing for Dead Blue Clown, is also the initials for a very intiguing writer for whom they stand for 'Dirty But Clean'.
** There's a distinct possibility the artist in question has succeeded for some time. In such a case, I would be intrigued to hear how they felt about this piece in particular.
*** I realise there is no three star entry above. I just wanted to stress: this is only my opinion, and everyone is entitled to one.
If you are rooting for Mongoose, as I am, to succeed with MRQ it is hard to see art like that cover. I don't need amazing cover art to help me decide what to buy, but a lot of people do, unfortunately. I am also rooting for DBC as the Lankhmar material is the most interesting stuff announced for MRQ in my opinion. I'd like to see artwork more on par with GW, but there may budgetary considerations we are not aware of that are limiting Mongoose.
CharlieMonster
Mongoose
Actually this raises a minor niggle I have with the RQ line so far. Now it might just be me 'cause I'm getting old and my eyesight's not what it once was
, but I find the blurb on the back of the RQ books, bl**dy hard to read. The sort of dark grey on pale grey isn't hugely friendly to us of the "Mr Magoo" persuasion. It doesn't inform my purchase decision because of my compulsive attention to the 'Goose webpages, but it might be causal to the casual purchaser. Anybody else find it problematic to read?Oh and back on topic, while I'm not nominating the Lankhmar cover a Turner, I think it's okay, I like the mood & colours, but the execution needs a little work. I hope the artist sticks at it, because he shows promise and originality. I do think it's a bit of storm in a teacup, because like it or not there's plenty worse out there on RPG market.
I buy a book.
I look at the cover.
I turn the cover over and start reading.
Several hours later, I close the book.
I look at the cover again.
Total time spent looking at the cover: 5 seconds.
Percentage spent looking at the cover: Less than one tenth of one percent.
I try and find something from the same book.
I look at the spine to find the book.
I pick the book up and galnce at the cover.
I read the book.
Time spent looking at the cover: 1 second
Artwork is really not that important.
I look at the cover.
I turn the cover over and start reading.
Several hours later, I close the book.
I look at the cover again.
Total time spent looking at the cover: 5 seconds.
Percentage spent looking at the cover: Less than one tenth of one percent.
I try and find something from the same book.
I look at the spine to find the book.
I pick the book up and galnce at the cover.
I read the book.
Time spent looking at the cover: 1 second
Artwork is really not that important.
duncan_disorderly
Mongoose
soltakss said:
This is fine if it is a book you kmew you were getting anyway. I mean if you pre-ordered MRQ/G2A/Lankhmar as soon as you heard they were being produced then no, the cover art is pretty much entirely irrelevant. (Interior art is possibly more important - If no one cared about it we wouldn't have had the pig-nosed troll thread(s) - but an attractive, easy to read layout with no art is better than a cluttered, poorly laid out book with good art...)
However, if you are intending to sell the book to the more casual browser then you need to do everything possible to encourage them to pick up your book and consider it a possible purchase. The RQ and Lankhmar names on their own are not enough. (Mongoose sell us thin, expensive hardbacks because their market research tells them that for all our moaning, more of us are prepared to buy books like that than if they offereds them as thicker and/or paperback versions. Do you think they would be paying an artist if they thought a plain cover would sell as many books?)
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
You don't mention inner illustrations. There is usually one on each other page (or at least one for 3 pages). You don't only read an RPG book like a common pictureless book as illustrations and arts belong to the fantasy you want to give to your world.soltakss said:
As to this front cover, well, I wouldn't say it sucks (because I'm polite) but it is clearly destined to younger people that most of us now are (who grew up with several edition). But still, the art is underneath what is expected from a leading RPG company.
duncan_disorderly said:
There is a big difference between the pig nose threads and the Lankhmar cover threads.
The pig nosed Trolls could be the best pieces of art ever produced, and old time Gloranthan gamers would have complained. It is not that the art is bad, it is that it is wrong in the depiction of Trolls. Ever since the RQ2 release of Trollpak we have had detailed anatomical drawings, dissection notes, etc. for Trolls - it is not like the appearance of trolls is just based on some vague descriptions open to interpretation.
The complaints with Lankhmar on the other hand are entirely with the quality of the art. I don't mind it, and it certainly doesn't turn me off to the book in the least, but clearly it evokes a strong response in some people.
CharlieMonster
Mongoose
This is a pretty fair point, especially given the vast amount of material out there. In it's time Leiber's series was essential reading and in many ways is still a classic, but probably doesn't hit the bestsellers these days. As a result Lankhmar has to reach a new market based on it's own merit.
The Fantasy RPG market is a product-rich environment. Faced with two otherwise indistinguishable products, a customer will select the better presented every time. It's probably a monkey thing, being conditioned on evolutionary level to identify the brightly coloured (i.e. ripe) fruit in the forest canopy.
homerjsinnott
Mongoose
I quite like the new art, the Lankhmar logo is espcially nice, how many pages is a much more important question for me (as long as it is good quality).
