Travellers Needed - Trade (check our numbers)

[MongooseMatt]

Hi everyone,

How would you feel about passengers and freight changing to the following (with Basic going down to 2 people per stateroom)?

Parsecs High Middle Basic Low Freight
1 9000 6500 2000 700 1000
2 14000 10000 3000 1300 1600
3 21000 14000 5000 2200 2600
4 34000 23000 8000 3900 4400
5 60000 40000 14000 7200 8500
6 210000 130000 55000 27000 32000

 

[Ursus Maior]

Hi everyone,

How would you feel about passengers and freight changing to the following (with Basic going down to 2 people per stateroom)?

Parsecs High Middle Basic Low Freight
1 9000 6500 2000 700 1000
2 14000 10000 3000 1300 1600
3 21000 14000 5000 2200 2600
4 34000 23000 8000 3900 4400
5 60000 40000 14000 7200 8500
6 210000 130000 55000 27000 32000

I was wondering about basic passage the other day, if the current rules are at odds with each other. Specifically in the following sentence (p. 149, bold by me): "Up to four basic passengers can be crammed into one stateroom and other areas of the ship can be kitted out with simple bunks to carry more – two tons of space is required for every basic passenger not in a stateroom."

I used to read this that a basic passenger takes up less space, if not confined to a small purpose-built stateroom. But reading your suggestion for a new core rulebook, it could also be a typo and it was never intended to have more than two basic passengers per stateroom.

I always liked the crowded feeling staterroms with four occupants gave tramp freighters. Plus, you know, I have a JTAS contribution coming up that fully supports that flavour some of us might have experienced on car ferries across the Baltic or Mediterranean Sea.

So, keeping four basic passengers as a maximum would be a nice thing.

 

[Being]

Yea keep it at 4. Please dont alter too much rules/numbers wise, it mucks up ongoing campaigns.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Assumptions:

This is for PC-scale free trader operations, so small ships that roll for business using the trade system.

Don't use all the tricks to make cheap ships, use something like standard ships like the Free Trader. No tech advantages. Don't use only TL-15 ships.


Consequences:

Rolling for cargoes and passengers, ships will not jump full all the time. For simplicity I will use average 80% capacity usage.

Filling the ship outside the major trade routes probably means ships with say 200±100 Dt payload, ships like the Free Trader or the Subsidised Merchant. Let ship size vary to achieve the desired payload.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Size matters:

Simple 200 Dt J-1 ship, barely breaking even:

Resized to 400 Dt, very profitable:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Comparing passengers to cargo:
Use the 400 Dt ship above, add passengers, if well-balanced profitability should be constant or perhaps slightly increased.

Add Low passengers:

Identical profitability, good.


Add Mid passengers:

Profitability decreased, hmm. I require extra overhead in the form of Escape Capsules or life boats, but that does not explain all of the decreased profitability. Mid Passages seems to cheap.


Instead add High passengers:

Slight decrease in profitability, mostly explained by Escape Capsules. Still most standard ships have some form of vehicle or craft included. High Passage seems a little to cheap.


It is probably difficult to fill 10 High passage slots, so fewer passengers seems indicated. This will lead to worse use of the Steward, so higher costs per passenger:

Better profitability, High Passage seems a bit too cheap.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Compare cargo for jump ratings:

J-1:

J-2, equal payload:

Much more profitable, J-2 cargo rates seems too high.


J-3, equal payload:

Again, much more profitable, J-3 cargo rates too high.


J-4, equal payload:

Again, much more profitable, J-4 cargo rates too high.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

J-5, equal payload:

Again, much more profitable, J-5 cargo rates much too high.


J-6, equal payload:

Absurd profitability, J-6 cargo rates much too high.


J-6 with drop tanks:

Interestingly not profitable, at least if the drop tank needs replacing every jump. At lower replacement rates, it is absurdly profitable.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

J-6 with drop tanks, replace the tank on roll of 7-, 21/36 chance:

Again absurdly profitable, but not very applicable to Free trader operations.

 

[heselbine]

How would you feel about passengers and freight changing to the following (with Basic going down to 2 people per stateroom)?

2 people per stateroom is already my house rule.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Given the ships above and maintaining 10-11% yearly yield, with a slight premium for passengers, I get the following table:

Basic passage is not verified, but calculated from Mid passage.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How would you feel about ... (with Basic going down to 2 people per stateroom)?

I would love it, two people per stateroom have always been the standard life support limit.

 

[Geir]

Since these numbers are my fault, let me share some logic:
#1 issue: Basic at 4 per stateroom this option better than carrying High passenger by far and completely unrelated to carrying passengers in the hold at 2 per ton.

#2 issue: There is no 2 passenger per stateroom choice, even though there are double occupancy and barracks rules all based around 2 tons per crew. Either make a 2 ton class and a 1 ton class for both or leave it at 2 tons.

#3 more of a reminder: when I did some math, Matthew wanted me not ignore (as I’m guessing many of us do) the 1 ton for the high cargo allowance, which eats into hold capability.

So, these prices use ‘model’ 400 ton ships (assumed TL12 – for J1 to J3, only standard components, a 2:1 freight/passenger mix on remaining space and some other assumptions and fudges, TL13 just for J4, but increasing to 600tons for J-5 an TL15 J6 1000 tons – because that’s where things get economical – overhead for bridge and crew and stuff makes carrying much else impossible)

My design goal was to make a full load of High (including steward and cargo expenses) always marginally better than a load of Middle which would be always marginally better than full load of Basic. Also, Basic should not be better than freight.

Finally, give an increasing profit margin to higher jump vessels, because these will be rarer. Then, use round(ish) numbers and keep increases for all classes generally in line as Jump numbers increase.

I plugged the resulting numbers back to A1 and A2 traders and a subsidized liner. At full load, with each passenger class, the ships stay profitable. Obviously mixes and lower passenger/freight loads make for ‘issues’ but that’s where the adventuring part factors in. Otherwise, it’s a freight and passenger moving spreadsheet game…

 

[Condottiere]

I rather doubt one size fits all.

The only explanation I come up with, is that they are vouchers issued by the Travellers Aid Society, that have to be honoured, outside of rather extreme extenuating circumstances.


And members get one free, every now and then.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

#3 more of a reminder: when I did some math, Matthew wanted me not ignore (as I’m guessing many of us do) the 1 ton for the high cargo allowance, which eats into hold capability.

Yes, I ignored this, since I use a 1000 kg luggage allowance.
Note that I included 1 Dt of Escape Capsules for each stateroom.

So, these prices use ‘model’ 400 ton ships (assumed TL12 – for J1 to J3, only standard components, a 2:1 freight/passenger mix on remaining space and some other assumptions and fudges, TL13 just for J4, but increasing to 600tons for J-5 an TL15 J6 1000 tons – because that’s where things get economical – overhead for bridge and crew and stuff makes carrying much else impossible)

Yes, this probably explains most of the difference between our results. Size matters, that is why I strived for an objective criteria: 200 Dt of payload.

 

[Geir]

#3 more of a reminder: when I did some math, Matthew wanted me not ignore (as I’m guessing many of us do) the 1 ton for the high cargo allowance, which eats into hold capability.

Yes, I ignored this, since I use a 1000 kg luggage allowance.

So, these prices use ‘model’ 400 ton ships (assumed TL12 – for J1 to J3, only standard components, a 2:1 freight/passenger mix on remaining space and some other assumptions and fudges, TL13 just for J4, but increasing to 600tons for J-5 an TL15 J6 1000 tons – because that’s where things get economical – overhead for bridge and crew and stuff makes carrying much else impossible)

Yes, this probably explains most of the difference between our results. Size matters, that is why I strived for an objective criteria: 200 Dt of payload.

I thought about going that static route, but as I found out when I tried to design a series of freightliners for the Spinward Extents, overhead sizes matter a lot and don't stay constant. Then when you finally have a ship big enough to make a good profit, you can't roll dice well enough to fill it, so for that ship line I only ended up using the minimum profitable (500 tons) and the maximum affordable(ish) 800 tons. I figure real world pricing over time will gravitate to values that make money for the successful traders out there, none of which get to fly ideal ships. What I assumed, though, was a full mortgage, so a refinanced or paid-off ship will make more money - when not paying for repairs and upgrades....