Traveller Manufacturing Rules

[J. L. Brown]

So how do people get food and material items that they need to survive if they do not need to work? 90% of jobs can be done by sufficiently advanced robots in the Traveller setting. TL-15 and below. Once they become sentient, they are no longer tools, they are people. How does a Capitalist society deal with 90% unemployment and no income to buy things? If everything is free, then it is not a Capitalist Society. The only services that will still be done by sophonts are the creative ones. Art and design as well as the sciences.

The distinguishing feature of 'capitalism' is 'people are allowed to own capital' -- ie, the means of production can be privately owned. If citizens own dividend-paying stocks in the companies which produce and services, then they have money to spend without selling their labor.

As far as manufacturing technologies post TL-17?

Robot Handbook, pg 104-105 Grey Goo and such things including morphic sophonts.

And I think that is a mistake that we should not duplicate.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The distinguishing feature of 'capitalism' is 'people are allowed to own capital' -- ie, the means of production can be privately owned. If citizens own dividend-paying stocks in the companies which produce and services, then they have money to spend without selling their labor.

But where does that money to invest come from if 90% of the population doesn't need to work? Inheritance from previous generations that did work?

And I think that is a mistake that we should not duplicate.

Without changing the complete TL charts going back decades, I am not sure how to change that. Nor am I sure why wouldn't want to. Not in Charted Space anyhow. You'd have to completely rewrite the Ancients as well.

 

[phavoc]

So how do people get food and material items that they need to survive if they do not need to work? 90% of jobs can be done by sufficiently advanced robots in the Traveller setting. TL-15 and below. Once they become sentient, they are no longer tools, they are people. How does a Capitalist society deal with 90% unemployment and no income to buy things? If everything is free, then it is not a Capitalist Society. The only services that will still be done by sophonts are the creative ones. Art and design as well as the sciences.

I think that depends on the definition you are using for capitalism. Are you wanting to use the political version, or the economic version? And the dictionary definitions are not quite the same as how it is implemented in reality. Arguably the US is a capitalist society, but it's not really a pure one. It's a mish-mash of multiple ideas - both political and economic.

Capitalism can easily have 10% employment and 100% support of all individuals of society - if that society is ok with that division of labor AND there are sufficient resources and productivity to allow them to do so. Productivity is key here because it means you can have fewer people providing the same amount of resources for society. Think of it like this - in a pre-industrial society something like 90% of the population was involved in subsistence farming. The rest were the landed gentry/land owners, merchants and religious castes. They simply didn't have enough production to support more people living off the backs of others' labor.

It's equally fair to say pure capitalism is as much of a fantasy as every other economic/political model. So far humanity has been unable to translate the academic versions of these into working literal models that are actually functional and can last. Humans are messy and they have brought those messes along with them into their political and economic models.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on the playing field.

If you can rent manufacturing facilities, without anyone monopolizing them, you can scale your enterprise, and adjust it to demand.

Others cannot block access to potential buyers.

Which would require a referee with force of law.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think that depends on the definition you are using for capitalism. Are you wanting to use the political version, or the economic version? And the dictionary definitions are not quite the same as how it is implemented in reality. Arguably the US is a capitalist society, but it's not really a pure one. It's a mish-mash of multiple ideas - both political and economic.

Capitalism can easily have 10% employment and 100% support of all individuals of society - if that society is ok with that division of labor AND there are sufficient resources and productivity to allow them to do so. Productivity is key here because it means you can have fewer people providing the same amount of resources for society. Think of it like this - in a pre-industrial society something like 90% of the population was involved in subsistence farming. The rest were the landed gentry/land owners, merchants and religious castes. They simply didn't have enough production to support more people living off the backs of others' labor.

Correct, but those Landed Gentry "taxed" those that did the work, that is how they gained money and resources and could effectively not have to work. How do you tax a robot? What is the value of labor? Is there any value in labor in a society where 90% of the work is done robotically? Big questions that I am not sure that I am smart enough to even try and answer.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Depends on the playing field.

If you can rent manufacturing facilities, without anyone monopolizing them, you can scale your enterprise, and adjust it to demand.

Others cannot block access to potential buyers.

Which would require a referee with force of law.

How do you get the money to rent manufacturing facilities without having any money?

 

[Condottiere]

That's why you scale.

You have crowdfunding, count commitments and/or prepayments.

 

[J. L. Brown]

But where does that money to invest come from if 90% of the population doesn't need to work? Inheritance from previous generations that did work?

Perhaps; or maybe every child is (at birth) gifted a small portfolio by the government; or their parents; or a charity; or a random philanthropist. That small portfolio grows as the child does.

Without changing the complete TL charts going back decades, I am not sure how to change that. Nor am I sure why wouldn't want to. Not in Charted Space anyhow. You'd have to completely rewrite the Ancients as well.

I do not recall seeing 'Post Scarcity' on a bunch of TL charts; but a brief skim through previous editions suggests that 'endpoint' technologies were placed at the high end of the Technology scale. The number of Technology Levels has risen over time from 18 in LBB #3, to 35 in T5; but the implication has always been that 'perfection' was not available, that there was always more progress to be made in every field even at the next-to-highest TL.

Anyhow; it looks like you and I are not likely to agree on this right away, so let us set it aside in favor of other things which we might be able to agree on.

Right now it looks like we both agree on: materials produced by prospecting -> (Mineral Refinery) -> Ore -> (Smelter) -> Raw Materials -> (Manufacturing Plant) -> Stuff

And I like the flow of (Raw Resource) -> (Processed Resource) -> (Commodity Items, Specific Components, & etc) -> (Finished Goods) -- but I think it is inconsistently applied in Traveller.

And this works fine for TL 7+, where Manufacturing Plants actually exist; but it leaves TL 6- worlds in limbo. Also, I would like to examine how:
1} a world builds the FIRST Manufacturing Plant;
2} how a planet upgrades Technology levels;
3} get a better grasp of how non-metal stuff is handled; and
4} the distinction between 'Advanced Goods' and 'High Tech Level Goods' needs to be examined & clarified.

For 1} can we adapt the rules for 'worlds without shipyards building ships'? I seem to recall seeing those somewhere, but I may be misremembering.

I think if we are going to have (Manufacturing Plant) -> Specific Components -> (Manufacturing Plant) -> Specific Finished Goods, then maybe we can specify that there are some classes of Manufacturing Plants of special interest. Some Examples:
A} A 'seed' Basic Manufacturing Plant (BMP) which can be built without specific components -- but all it does is manufacture specific components to build other BMPs.
B} A BMP which just produces the initial components to build a 'seed' Advanced Manufacturing Plant (AdMP) which itself only produces specific components to build other AdMPs.
C} A 'seed' Agricultural Manufacturing Plant (AgMp), made from components from a specific BMP.
D} A 'seed' Specialist Manufacturing Plant (SMP), made from components from a specific AdMP.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Perhaps; or maybe every child is (at birth) gifted a small portfolio by the government; or their parents; or a charity; or a random philanthropist. That small portfolio grows as the child does.

I do not recall seeing 'Post Scarcity' on a bunch of TL charts; but a brief skim through previous editions suggests that 'endpoint' technologies were placed at the high end of the Technology scale. The number of Technology Levels has risen over time from 18 in LBB #3, to 35 in T5; but the implication has always been that 'perfection' was not available, that there was always more progress to be made in every field even at the next-to-highest TL.

Anyhow; it looks like you and I are not likely to agree on this right away, so let us set it aside in favor of other things which we might be able to agree on.

Right now it looks like we both agree on: materials produced by prospecting -> (Mineral Refinery) -> Ore -> (Smelter) -> Raw Materials -> (Manufacturing Plant) -> Stuff

And I like the flow of (Raw Resource) -> (Processed Resource) -> (Commodity Items, Specific Components, & etc) -> (Finished Goods) -- but I think it is inconsistently applied in Traveller.

And this works fine for TL 7+, where Manufacturing Plants actually exist; but it leaves TL 6- worlds in limbo. Also, I would like to examine how:
1} a world builds the FIRST Manufacturing Plant;
2} how a planet upgrades Technology levels;
3} get a better grasp of how non-metal stuff is handled; and
4} the distinction between 'Advanced Goods' and 'High Tech Level Goods' needs to be examined & clarified.

I just figure that once We get to TLs above Our own, retooling plants to produce different goods becomes so easy as to be a non-issue. So, a Basic Manufacturing Plant can put out whatever you want that falls under what a Basic Manufacturing Plant can produce. Same for the other types of plants.

Types of goods has always been written from the prospective of Spec Trade, so it was never meant to work with anything else. If I want TL-15 goods, I need a TL-15 Manufacturing Plant, but that is not covered anywhere in the rules either.

For 1} can we adapt the rules for 'worlds without shipyards building ships'? I seem to recall seeing those somewhere, but I may be misremembering.

Requiring shipyards never made sense for smaller ships that have a production run of 1 or two ships.. A spherical 100-ton ship is just under 46' in diameter. That can be built by a couple of guys in their backyard over a few years. People build boats, airplanes and other such things in the garages. Why not a spaceship? 10-ton Light Fighter? Just under 7 meters in size.

I think if we are going to have (Manufacturing Plant) -> Specific Components -> (Manufacturing Plant) -> Specific Finished Goods, then maybe we can specify that there are some classes of Manufacturing Plants of special interest. Some Examples:
A} A 'seed' Basic Manufacturing Plant (BMP) which can be built without specific components -- but all it does is manufacture specific components to build other BMPs.
B} A BMP which just produces the initial components to build a 'seed' Advanced Manufacturing Plant (AdMP) which itself only produces specific components to build other AdMPs.
C} A 'seed' Agricultural Manufacturing Plant (AgMp), made from components from a specific BMP.
D} A 'seed' Specialist Manufacturing Plant (SMP), made from components from a specific AdMP.

I just go with the fast and easy retooling. It seems to make more sense for how manufacturing will develop as technology improves. Your whole idea doesn't seem to have retooling as a thing eventhough it exists in Our world currently, although not at all efficiently.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I figure specialization wins; and re-tooling has costs over and above just the opportunity cost of time-lost-to-retool. Better to have separate production lines producing 'Peanut Butter', 'Jelly', and 'Bread' as quickly & efficiently as possible, rather than a single production line which turns out one, then re-tools, turns out another, then re-tools, etc.

Also, I am working from the player-facing 'Trade' tables, which -- like almost everything in Traveller -- imagine a future almost exactly like our present but with cooler gadgets. The Actual Future (tm) will be quite different, and that is okay; the game is intended to have elements that create fun and relatable stories instead of being an accurate prediction of the future.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[MasterGwydion]

I figure specialization wins; and re-tooling has costs over and above just the opportunity cost of time-lost-to-retool. Better to have separate production lines producing 'Peanut Butter', 'Jelly', and 'Bread' as quickly & efficiently as possible, rather than a single production line which turns out one, then re-tools, turns out another, then re-tools, etc.

Also, I am working from the player-facing 'Trade' tables, which -- like almost everything in Traveller -- imagine a future almost exactly like our present but with cooler gadgets. The Actual Future (tm) will be quite different, and that is okay; the game is intended to have elements that create fun and relatable stories instead of being an accurate prediction of the future.

I figure that retooling would be fast, easy, and cheap due to Fabricators. Way less expensive than operating and maintaining multiple specialist facilities. Currently on Earth, this isn't possible as Our Fabricators and automated production lines suck. lol

 

[J. L. Brown]

I figure that retooling would be fast, easy, and cheap due to Fabricators. Way less expensive than operating and maintaining multiple specialist facilities. Currently on Earth, this isn't possible as Our Fabricators and automated production lines suck. lol

But TL 17 Fabricators are just barely catching up to what TL 7 Manufacturing Plants can do: Produce items of their own TL. Lower-thanTL-17 civilizations use other methods.

 

[MasterGwydion]

But TL 17 Fabricators are just barely catching up to what TL 7 Manufacturing Plants can do: Produce items of their own TL. Lower-thanTL-17 civilizations use other methods.

Yeah, but retooling industrial-size tools is way easier than fabricating nanobots, but Fabricators can do that before TL-17.

The whole machine could be TL-15 in the plant, but it is reasonable to assume that toolheads and such could use "lower TL" parts. The way they describe what can be produced by Fabricators says it is a matter of how complex the item is. It seems to Me that they just used TL (incorrectly) to codify that using existing rules, instead of just letting the Referees decide what is too complex, based on the simple description of what each level of Fabricator can build in the flavor text.

 

[phavoc]

Correct, but those Landed Gentry "taxed" those that did the work, that is how they gained money and resources and could effectively not have to work. How do you tax a robot? What is the value of labor? Is there any value in labor in a society where 90% of the work is done robotically? Big questions that I am not sure that I am smart enough to even try and answer.

Yes. Or, in other cases, simply took all the production for themselves (i.e. serfdom).

There is absolutely value of labor in a society where 10% works - but it's not as simple as just debating the percentages. More info would need to be known in order to properly discuss and evaluate such a thing. The society postulated by ST:TNG is something like that - where all basic needs are provided to people for free (food, housing, clothing, etc). People work because they want to, but everyone can eat and have shelter and just pursue life without "working for the man". That's possible due to limitless energy and other advances that we don't have access to.

It's hard to imagine that for many people, but it's entirely possible.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes. Or, in other cases, simply took all the production for themselves (i.e. serfdom).

There is absolutely value of labor in a society where 10% works - but it's not as simple as just debating the percentages. More info would need to be known in order to properly discuss and evaluate such a thing. The society postulated by ST:TNG is something like that - where all basic needs are provided to people for free (food, housing, clothing, etc). People work because they want to, but everyone can eat and have shelter and just pursue life without "working for the man". That's possible due to limitless energy and other advances that we don't have access to.

It's hard to imagine that for many people, but it's entirely possible.

Yeah. The Federation is an odd case. Most people in the Federation work and have money, outside of Starfleet anyhow. Only Starfleet seems to be a work for free organization. Also, the Federation doesn't really use robots until later on. So, most of the workforce in their society are sophonts. I am sure things would be vastly different if 90% of their workforce was robotic and the 10% that were sophonts, only do the work because they love it, not because they are getting paid. Getting paid means nothing if everything is free.

 

[phavoc]

Yeah. The Federation is an odd case. Most people in the Federation work and have money, outside of Starfleet anyhow. Only Starfleet seems to be a work for free organization. Also, the Federation doesn't really use robots until later on. So, most of the workforce in their society are sophonts. I am sure things would be vastly different if 90% of their workforce was robotic and the 10% that were sophonts, only do the work because they love it, not because they are getting paid. Getting paid means nothing if everything is free.

Asimov's robot society did that (like 50 robots to 1 person, cept on Earth).

 

[Condottiere]

Apparently, they can be hacked, and become suicide bombers.

Or, decide they know better, and self correct human destiny.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Seems to work out if I just multiple the tonnage for all of the Manufacturing Plants and Refineries by x60. This brings the profits down to a reasonable level and makes them heinously expensive to build and staff.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Seems to work out if I just multiple the tonnage for all of the Manufacturing Plants and Refineries by x60. This brings the profits down to a reasonable level and makes them heinously expensive to build and staff.

And makes fabricators more competitive.