The Sindallan Navy

Andrewm

Mongoose
In my Pirates of Drinax campaign I have decided that my players will ultimatly need to field a small number of Cruiser class vessels. This is because I dount the ability or morale of a fleet of small pirate ships to overwhelm true capital ships in the final battle and so do my players.
They expect to be able to gain control of the Light Cruiser Torpol has and are already planning to find a way to fix its jump drive.
To get to the point of this post I have decided to allow them a chance of recovering the last ships of the Sindallan Star Guard , a few loyal cruisers which after the battle of Thebus retreated to a deep space anchorage for repair and reorganisation unfortunatly one of the ships took with it a bio-weapon and everyone at the anchorage died leaving the ships there to be found.
At the moment the ships they will find are
There are 3 Cruisers and 5 destroyers docked all of which have battle damage and further damage caused by uncontrolled shutdowns and maintenance problems
Dawn Phoenix Strike Cruiser Light damage plus maintenance issues
Herald of Eternal Darkness Bombardment cruiser Light Damage
Winged Victory of Drinax Strike Cruiser Moderate Damage one wing lost

Bombardment of Crinos Bombardment destroyer Moderate damage
Hive of devouring doom Light Carrier Light damage no small craft remain
The Inevitable Shoggoth Pursuit Destroyer Light Damage
The Relentless Destrachan Pursuit Destroyer Moderate damage
Black Pegasus Assault Destroyer Moderate damage

Does anyone have good ideas of what the Sindallan Navy ships would be like in appearance and capabilities. At the moment I lean towards similar in appearence to the Centauri ships from Babylon 5 and a doctrine with lower jump capacity than Imperial ships , tending to be overgunned and under protected as at the time of their construction their were no peer opponents for the Sindallan navy.
The Strike cruisers will be similar to a High Guard strike carrier with a large small craft wing and cruiser class weapons , the Bombardment Cruiser will be armed with a Spinal Railgun and mount large numbers of Rail and Missile Bays but otherwise have a very similar hull to the Strike Cruiser
 

MasterGwydion

Banded Mongoose
In my Pirates of Drinax campaign I have decided that my players will ultimatly need to field a small number of Cruiser class vessels. This is because I dount the ability or morale of a fleet of small pirate ships to overwhelm true capital ships in the final battle and so do my players.
They expect to be able to gain control of the Light Cruiser Torpol has and are already planning to find a way to fix its jump drive.
To get to the point of this post I have decided to allow them a chance of recovering the last ships of the Sindallan Star Guard , a few loyal cruisers which after the battle of Thebus retreated to a deep space anchorage for repair and reorganisation unfortunatly one of the ships took with it a bio-weapon and everyone at the anchorage died leaving the ships there to be found.
At the moment the ships they will find are
There are 3 Cruisers and 5 destroyers docked all of which have battle damage and further damage caused by uncontrolled shutdowns and maintenance problems
Dawn Phoenix Strike Cruiser Light damage plus maintenance issues
Herald of Eternal Darkness Bombardment cruiser Light Damage
Winged Victory of Drinax Strike Cruiser Moderate Damage one wing lost

Bombardment of Crinos Bombardment destroyer Moderate damage
Hive of devouring doom Light Carrier Light damage no small craft remain
The Inevitable Shoggoth Pursuit Destroyer Light Damage
The Relentless Destrachan Pursuit Destroyer Moderate damage
Black Pegasus Assault Destroyer Moderate damage

Does anyone have good ideas of what the Sindallan Navy ships would be like in appearance and capabilities. At the moment I lean towards similar in appearence to the Centauri ships from Babylon 5 and a doctrine with lower jump capacity than Imperial ships , tending to be overgunned and under protected as at the time of their construction their were no peer opponents for the Sindallan navy.
The Strike cruisers will be similar to a High Guard strike carrier with a large small craft wing and cruiser class weapons , the Bombardment Cruiser will be armed with a Spinal Railgun and mount large numbers of Rail and Missile Bays but otherwise have a very similar hull to the Strike Cruiser
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Sindalian_Empire
 

Andrewm

Mongoose
Thank you my Google Fu was apparently weak, will look at that. And I have that adventure and failed to remember the destroyer will check again

The fleet information is interesting but not really useful. Does not include the known Sindallan ships (like the Harrier) and does not have much information on the others. I suspect I will have to go ahead and make up my own fleet and organisation to the degree it matters 2000 years later
 

MasterGwydion

Banded Mongoose
The only ones not listed are the Harrier and the Rorix Command Vessel, but those weren't strictly military. They were more considered customs enforcement ships. That lists the entire "known" Fleet of the Empire of Sindal at the time of it's collapse.

A mothballed fleet of the ships, exactly as you describe is actually already in existence. It is one of the NaHu worlds over by the Glorious Empire in the Trojan Reach Sector
 
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Synther

Banded Mongoose
I don't know if this will be of help but:
Spoiler the adventure The_Mystery_of_BT_SHT_365 there a destroyer write-up in it I beleave for the sindallan.
There is indeed. I would love to have done a deck plan for the Rasputin-class Destroyer Escort but, truth be told, I am absolutely horrendous at doing maps. I mean, spectacularly bad. It should also be noted that the Rasputin isn't considered a typical example of Sindalian ship design. It was more of a custom ship for the Petrovsky family, though it isn't really clearly stated as such. At the very least, there wouldn't have been many of them around.

It is my understanding that the Sindalian Empire preferred smaller ships over cruiser class vessels. This is mostly due to the inherent paranoia of the despot emperors. They feared mutiny from their own navy and really didn't like the idea of a cruiser class showing up on Noricum's doorstep. I suppose it isn't really paranoia if that is a legitimate fear (I'm looking at you Olav Hault-Plankwell). I could likely see the Sindalians using carriers to ferry their small ships about, but nothing quite as large as anything the Third Imperium might field today (in 1105). The other thing to keep in mind is that the names "Dreadnought," "Cruiser," "Frigate," etc...aren't necessarily indicative of size/weight. To the Sindalians, a Dreadnought may have been in the 20,000 dton range, much smaller than that of the Third Imperium. But when its the biggest boat in the fleet, you can call it whatever you like. At any rate, a 15k to 20k dton ship dropping rocks, nukes, and bio-weapons onto a "troublesome" planet is just as effective as a 500k ship. Dead is dead. And many of the worlds in the Trojan Reach know this better than just about anyone else.
 

Andrewm

Mongoose
"The archaic Sindalian fleet of Goertel, mothballed on Delta Theta for centuries, returned to assert the authority of the Church."
I remembered this one, the impression I got it that it needed the Glorious Empire to pull its major assets out of Goertal before it could be liberated . So a fairly small force could include a cruiser but with a cruiser you can domiante the entire dust belt so probably not.
Given that the last Admiral of the Star Guard was using a Harrier I see no reason to belive that Harriers and Rorix were not military vessels, I agree not the mainstay of the fleet,
As far as I can tell Sindal faced no real external threats, the Aslan had not crossed the rift yet, the 1st and second Imperiums had collapsed , the Vargyr were far away as are the Zhodani. That leaves the Florians who persimably were isolationist and the Darrians who are not close and were not a militant power. So the Sindallan fleet was largely for anti-piracy and Internal security, small attack ships able to kill pirates and rebels as the mainstay of the fleet works, then bombardment squadrons for internal security and a few small groups of capital ships with theoretically loyal officers and crews. Limit planatery defences and you have a pyramid of power until it goes wrong and some of the capital ship groups lead the rebellion. Maybe each of the Sindallan duke's was responsible for a battlegroup.
As the Wiki has no official souces I give it little credibility, it looks like a lazy copy of the PLAN OOB with no real thought of conversion to Traveller warfare. At TL14-15 missile cruisers are largely useless against other big ships Spinal mounts are the ship killers from when I did a lot of Traveller wargaming so I shall ignore that . I have no idea what a 'Mine Countermeasure Ship' is or what its purpose is in Traveller for a start.
 

Andrewm

Mongoose
There is indeed. I would love to have done a deck plan for the Rasputin-class Destroyer Escort but, truth be told, I am absolutely horrendous at doing maps. I mean, spectacularly bad. It should also be noted that the Rasputin isn't considered a typical example of Sindalian ship design. It was more of a custom ship for the Petrovsky family, though it isn't really clearly stated as such. At the very least, there wouldn't have been many of them around.

It is my understanding that the Sindalian Empire preferred smaller ships over cruiser class vessels. This is mostly due to the inherent paranoia of the despot emperors. They feared mutiny from their own navy and really didn't like the idea of a cruiser class showing up on Noricum's doorstep. I suppose it isn't really paranoia if that is a legitimate fear (I'm looking at you Olav Hault-Plankwell). I could likely see the Sindalians using carriers to ferry their small ships about, but nothing quite as large as anything the Third Imperium might field today (in 1105). The other thing to keep in mind is that the names "Dreadnought," "Cruiser," "Frigate," etc...aren't necessarily indicative of size/weight. To the Sindalians, a Dreadnought may have been in the 20,000 dton range, much smaller than that of the Third Imperium. But when its the biggest boat in the fleet, you can call it whatever you like. At any rate, a 15k to 20k dton ship dropping rocks, nukes, and bio-weapons onto a "troublesome" planet is just as effective as a 500k ship. Dead is dead. And many of the worlds in the Trojan Reach know this better than just about anyone else.
I also suck at deckplans so no criticism.
I agree with a force of mainly small ships, I think that the 75,000 ton cruisers I am going for were present in fairly small numbers with possibly a tine number of larger battleships under the direct control of the Emperor. IIRC there were 6 dukedoms in the empire so about 30 cruisers and 4 Battleships or Battlecarriers plus a lot of smaller ships including 5-10000 ton bombardment ships for 'peacekeeping' and the rebellion probably started with an attempt to take the battleships out then the rest of the capital ships largely died at the battle of Thebus with a few rebel and lotalist ships surviving to finish the war and blast all the major worlds.

Part of my reason for the reasonably large cruisers is to make them useful in the modern age as that is the reason I added them to the campaign
 

Synther

Banded Mongoose
I also suck at deckplans so no criticism.
I agree with a force of mainly small ships, I think that the 75,000 ton cruisers I am going for were present in fairly small numbers with possibly a tine number of larger battleships under the direct control of the Emperor. IIRC there were 6 dukedoms in the empire so about 30 cruisers and 4 Battleships or Battlecarriers plus a lot of smaller ships including 5-10000 ton bombardment ships for 'peacekeeping' and the rebellion probably started with an attempt to take the battleships out then the rest of the capital ships largely died at the battle of Thebus with a few rebel and lotalist ships surviving to finish the war and blast all the major worlds.

Part of my reason for the reasonably large cruisers is to make them useful in the modern age as that is the reason I added them to the campaign
I've had the similar thought that you're having about the final battle. I'm not anywhere near that point in my own campaign but my Travellers have a small cadre of ramshackle ships. I think the largest ship they have available to them is a Subsidised Liner. Everything else is Free/Far Traders, Type-S Scouts, etc. About 8 ships in all. For the most part, they leave the crews of those ships up to their own devices and it is assumed that there are random acts of piracy going on all across the Dustbelt. Which is good for keeping their secret space station in Borite hidden and not drawing direct attention to a larger organization but it is terrible for when they want to plan a large operation. Too many chefs in the kitchen, so to speak, and pirate captains tend to have pretty large egos. As much as I hate to say it, the final apocalyptic battle is as close to a no win scenario as I can think of. Really, the smart thing for them to do is to take their favorite ship and run. But...that's just my opinion.
 

Andrewm

Mongoose
I've had the similar thought that you're having about the final battle. I'm not anywhere near that point in my own campaign but my Travellers have a small cadre of ramshackle ships. I think the largest ship they have available to them is a Subsidised Liner. Everything else is Free/Far Traders, Type-S Scouts, etc. About 8 ships in all. For the most part, they leave the crews of those ships up to their own devices and it is assumed that there are random acts of piracy going on all across the Dustbelt. Which is good for keeping their secret space station in Borite hidden and not drawing direct attention to a larger organization but it is terrible for when they want to plan a large operation. Too many chefs in the kitchen, so to speak, and pirate captains tend to have pretty large egos. As much as I hate to say it, the final apocalyptic battle is as close to a no win scenario as I can think of. Really, the smart thing for them to do is to take their favorite ship and run. But...that's just my opinion.
I have allowed my players to aquire several Harriers with work, and they are building up a signifigant pirate force. However they have a lot of politicking and money making before they can prepare for their final campaign.
At the moment we have 3 ship pairs of a Freigher and a Harrier with PC's commanding 2 of the groups, and an armed merchant ship , 2 more Harriers were passed to the Drinaxian Star Guard who are carrying out an anti-piracy patrol around Oghma for good PR. They aim to gather the force together to hit convoy's at some point.
Having them find some crippled cruisers at this point just gives them more issues without anything useful for now, they have to
1) Get the ships repaired
2) Get crews
3) Prevent the Imperium or the Aslan finding out about these ships
The top 2 will take at least a couple of years in game time so if I am going to give them the option then they need to get access to the ships early
 

Alqualonde

Mongoose
I think the best thing the player could do is to use an asteroid to make their own capital ship. They'll have free armour (a little), a lot of space for weapons and can salvage parts from old Sindalian ships.
No need of a costly jump drive, just let the 'Cats come.
Beside capital ships are not useful for the blockade part (there a cap on fighting strength calculation).
I just have few questions for this part of the campaign :
- Does the cap still apply for this part? The Eurisko could be worth 150 dice in fighting strength...
- Each round of combat will see an erosion of the fighting strength (on average by half). Isn't it a little bit drastic?
- If anyone played this part, how did it worked for them?
 

Garran

Banded Mongoose
The cap does still seem to apply there since the listed force strengths for the potential opposition don't make any sense otherwise.

The drop in strength does seem precipitous, although if you consider the 'turn' to encompass a lengthy engagement rather than the usual 'turn' of space combat, it's more reasonable. The loss of fighting strength doesn't necessarily mean that the ships have been destroyed, either - they might be disabled, drawn away, out of (ammo/fuel/whatever), etc.

I haven't seen it play out in parity yet but my impression is that, unless the numbers are overwhelmingly slanted one way or another (I've seen that happen*), it's going to amount to a mostly-random outcome mitigated by PC actions. If the PCs are well-suited to pulling off the listed tasks, they're probably okay; otherwise it'll be something close to a coin flip even if the numbers are theoretically somewhat in their favor.

* PCs calling in extra favors and having some surprises in reserve meant that the Ihatei arrived to find themselves outnumbered nearly three to one, allowing for a first-round "force a conclusion" move on the part of Drinax. Round two was just as one-sided.
 
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Andrewm

Mongoose
Building a capital ship in Drinax is impractical asteroid or otherwise the population just cannot support enough industry to build a capital ship unless you bring in lots of robots or tech trained people. Tech world would be a better choice as they have the robots if the GM thinks they do. Theeve also looks unlikely to be able to build a capital ship. So either you find a legacy ship, get Torpol's light cruiser or pay someone in the Imperium or Hierate to build you one.
Of course getting the funds to build a capital ship is going to be hard. So far Piracy does not seem to pay that well.

Having a Jump capable capital ship or two also plays a role in a 'fleet in being' strategy, A cruiser can crush any convoy of merchant ships not escorted by a cruiser of its own (There are parallels with German capital ship raiding of convoy's in WW2 , with older British battleships protecting convoy's against Scharnhorst and Gneisenau). There are probably going to be at a minimum 12 convoys to the Hierate (around 6 jump 2's each way) plus the jump 3 and florian routes , and probably a guardship or two on Imperial and Hierate border worlds. A warship can probably spend about half its time on active duty as a WAG thats about 60 cruisers, neither the Imperium or the Hierate can spare that many ships so it is a big incentive to either recognise Drinax or go for the throat and take out Drinax and presumably their fleet in being by attacking Drinax.

I have not got to the final part of the campaign and won't for a considerable period of time. I have looked at it and while the force dice for resolving the blockage looks reasonable . It reflects the need to scatter small ships across a large area and the loss rate includes ships being recalled home and defecting after an act of piracy. It makes sense that a capital ship would not be as effective as a lot of smaller ships here as they are not fighting other capital ships and a cruiser can only be on one place at one time.
I am not happy with the final battle depending on my campaign it may not happen but that is the least likely option , I will probably freeform a battle with some use of High Guard and reply on clever player plans. The players will have their own capital ships and units from key allies they have aquired over time.
I consider that a real capital ship is not a practical target for small ships without huge numbers and the players probably cannot assemble a fanatical and large fleet of small ships. My expected solution is to give the pc's a capital ship or two. Alternativly I would let them come up with clever plans for sabotage, infiltration or ambush

I will probably have a better idea of how I will run such a large space battle after monday as I have Pyetr's anti-aslan pirates being ambushed by the players Harrier fleet to resolve and I can learn from that experience it will feature 20+ ships so smaller than the final battle but still larger than most
 

Andrewm

Mongoose
For interest my basic write up of the Sindallan High Guard
High Star Guard of Sindal

The Capital ship strength of the various ducal fleets was carefully limited so that the Emperors personal fleet could defeat any 2 or 3 Ducal fleets and with the support of the other ducal fleets was likely to win any Civil war, this of course failed with the mass rebellion of several duchies combined with sabotage of several of the Imperial ships.

The strength of the raider and destroyer fleets of the duchies was not closely regulated and depended on the economic status of the Duchies. In the run up to the fall Dpres and Gor heavily overbuilt these fleets of smaller ships giving them and unexpected advantage.

Imperial Star Guard- The Star Dragons
The Battleships of the Imperial Bodyguard Squadron
The Star Dragon (Destroyed by smuggled Nuclear weapons)
Triumph of Noricum (Sabotaged in Dry Dock over Noricum
Imperial Vengeance (Destroyed in Battle of Thebus)
Worldeater (Misjumped under fire at Battle of Thebus)

The Noricum Ducal Cruiser Squadron
Flame of Eternal Punishment Bombardment Cruiser (Destroyed at Thebus)
Last Sword of Sindal Strike Cruiser (Destroyed in Dry Dock at Noricum)
Winged Victory of Sindal Strike Cruiser (Ambushed and Destroyed at Number One)
Dragon of Autumn Twilight Strike Cruiser (Destroyed at Thebus)

Duchy of Gor Starguard - The Falcon Guard (Traitors)
Gor Ducal Cruiser Squadron
Horseman of the Apocalypse Bombardment Cruiser Killed by Noricum planetary defenses
Winged Victory of Gor Strike Cruiser Lost at Thebus
The Jade Falcon Strike Cruiser Lost at Thebus
The Millenial Falcon Strike Cruiser Fate Unknown


Duchy of Albe Starguard - The Lion Guard (Neutral)
Albe Ducal Cruiser Squadron
Harbinger of the End Times Bombardment Cruiser Lost in Mutiny
Winged Victory of Albe Strike Cruiser Rebel mutual kill with Lion of Albion
Lion of Albion Strike Cruiser Loyal Mutual kill with Winged Victoryof Albe
The Nemean Lion Strike Cruiser Rebel lost at Thebus

Duchy of Dpres Starguard- The Wolf Guard (Rebel)
Dpres Ducal Cruiser Squadron
The Long Night Bombardment Cruiser Killed after bombardment of Noricum
Winged Victory of Dpres Strike Cruiser Lost at Thebus
Teeth of Fenrir Strike Cruiser Lost at Thebus
Hand of Tyr Strike Cruiser Not seen after Thebus fate unknown

Star Guard of Pandora- The Phoenix Guard
Pandora Ducal Cruiser Squadron Rebel Destroyed at Thebus
Dawn Phoenix Strike Cruiser Loyalist Survived
Winged Victory of Pandora Strike Cruiser Rebel Destroyed at Thebus
Pandora’s Box Unleashed Strike Cruiser Rebel died defending Pandora


Star Guard of Drinax- The Hawk Guard (Loyalist)
Drinaxian Ducal Cruiser Squadron
Herald of Eternal Darkness Bombardment cruiser Survived
Winged Victory of Drinax Strike Cruise Survived
Hawk of Vigilance Strike Cruiser Lost at Thebus
Eternal Flame of Victory Strike Cruiser Survived to Drinaxian Star Kingdom lost in Aslan attack on Drinax

Duchy of Fortch Guard- The Black Panthers (Loyal)
Fortch Ducal Cruiser Squadron
Impact of Chicxulub Bombardment Cruiser Destroyed at Lacideaus
Winged Victory of Fortch Strike Cruiser Destroyed at Thebus
The Cheshire Cat Destroyed at Lacideaus
Glory of Wakanda Survived in Mothball used ib Liberation of Goertal by Church

Duchy of Yggrdissil- The Hammers of Thor (Isolationist Rebels
Yggdrasil Ducal Cruiser Squadron
Shelobs Bite Bombardment Cruiser Destroyed in Loyalist Strike at Yggdrasil
Winged Victory of Yggrdissil Strike Cruiser Destroyed in Loyalist Strike at Yggdrasil
Strike of Mjolnir Strike Cruiser Destroyed in Loyalist Strike at Yggdrasil
Strike of Gungnir Strike Cruiser Fate Unknown
 

Garran

Banded Mongoose
I consider that a real capital ship is not a practical target for small ships without huge numbers and the players probably cannot assemble a fanatical and large fleet of small ships. My expected solution is to give the pc's a capital ship or two. Alternativly I would let them come up with clever plans for sabotage, infiltration or ambush

Keep in mind that Traveller defines anything 1000dt and up as a capital ship; things in the 1000-2000 range are viable if dangerous targets for smaller vessels. Even an 8000dt one like the Gorlunn could be swamped by enough of a missile barrage (which is also likely to be part of the reason that fighting dice are capped - quantity does matter).

A full sized cruiser like the Eurisko may be a problem due to the heavy armor and PD capability, but then again, the PCs' fleet doesn't have to limit itself to basic missiles in that sort of engagement, and Drinax can probably scrounge up (or its allies outright provide) more dangerous ones, even if they don't have the nukes from Treasure of Sindal. (Overconfidence on the part of the attackers is implied by the story and the relatively limited force they send - especially if Krond is in charge of it - so a fatal underestimation of Drinax's ability to get capital-killing weapons is actually plausible.)
 

AndrewW

Cosmic Mongoose
Keep in mind that Traveller defines anything 1000dt and up as a capital ship; things in the 1000-2000 range are viable if dangerous targets for smaller vessels. Even an 8000dt one like the Gorlunn could be swamped by enough of a missile barrage (which is also likely to be part of the reason that fighting dice are capped - quantity does matter).
High Guard: "Capital Ship: A military ship of more than 5,000 tons."
 

Condottiere

Cosmic Mongoose
The Revenges were considered disposable, though their crews were not.

If they could have gone into combat with any German capital ship/surface raider, as long as they could substantially damage it, thereby mission kill, and slow it down, they would have done their job, as it would have been hunted down by the fast elements of the Royal Navy before it could escape.

And the Germans knew that, which is why when they were in doubt, they would disengage.
 

Andrewm

Mongoose
High Guard: "Capital Ship: A military ship of more than 5,000 tons."
My own personal definition of Capital ship in the 3rd Imperium universe is at least 30,000 tons or so , a cruiser of the published ships. Anything not defined as a cruiser, carrrier or Battleship would not be something I consider a capital ship based on the history of the term.
I would also consider for the purpose of the final battle saying the Imperium sent 4 5,000 ton escorts to be cheaping out after a Planet class cruiser was hanging around earlier on the punitive expedition.
Also not convinced a nuclear missile swarm will bother a cruiser, I assume that as the basic attack even a small Light cruiser has 2 type III point defense batterries and 50 triple beam laser turret backing up 9 nuclear dampers . Then they need to take down 12,000 hull points that needs a LOT of nuclear missiles salvo numbers in the over 100 range and lots of them, while the cruisers own missiles hit back, the light cruiser is firing 480 missile salvo's back which is going to kill a lot of small ships. So a fanatic missile armed swarm is needed.

R Class battleships were fairly expendable and by the point the German ships were raiding in the Atlantic it was realised that they were very risk averse in their orders so even the pair of them would not risk an engagment with even R-Class or unrefitted Queen Elizebeths, and of course either of them made a convoy attack by a smaller German ship impossible. Bismarck was meant to change that but that idea did not work so well
 

Condottiere

Cosmic Mongoose
I'm pretty sure the Royal Navy would be quite happy to try and match two of them against Prinz Eugen and Bismarck, if the Germans would have been dumb enough to slow down.
 

Condottiere

Cosmic Mongoose
As regards capitol ships, it depends on whether you take the Tee Five technical definition, which seems basically anything in excess of what's listed, five kilotonnes plus, or whatever would be the current military one, which I believe only developed at some point during the Washington naval treaty limitations.

You're probably looking at assets with strategic effects.
 
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