The Best and Worst Patrol Level Ships

Humbaba

Mongoose
Inspired in part by Chernobyl’s upcoming “King of the Jump Gate” tourney at this year’s Kublacon I have started a series of spreadsheets calculating the relative strengths and weaknesses of the various ships. I thought that I might post some of my findings for the amusement of the board members here and I am starting with the best and worst rated “Patrol” level ships.

A couple of notes on my technique: ships were rated for their defense factor based on the calculation of how many dice a weapon would have to be to kill the ship in three turns (that is three shots). This weapon has base stats – no modifiers. The ships are rated for attack based on the number of base dice equivalent damage they would do to a hull 5 target with no other special defenses. Ships ratings are then calculated with these two ratings modified by the cost in allocation points (based on a Raid level scenario) and finally are given a correction factor to compensate for the greater total weapon survivability of larger ships vs. smaller ones.

Naturally these sorts of calculations can only be taken so far and more importantly they do not take into account style of play or fleet strategy etc. The ratings are merely intended to show a ship’s basic fighting strength. Also keep in mind that the ratings are based on a ship’s ability to attack ships and not auxiliary craft (though I have done those calculations too…). Values are calculated with the inclusion of the best possible auxiliary craft that can be substituted for each ship. So with out any more filibuster – I give to you the best and worst of the Patrol level ships…

The Best:
1- The Porfatis – Pak’ma’ra (total rating 26.7)
Not very good defensively, but packs a punch and you get 12 for one Raid point.
2- The Thunderbolt – Earthforce (22.1)
Good offensively and defensively and you get 9
3- The Corvan – Centauri (16.1)
Our best non-auxiliary patrol level craft with Scout, Stealth, and Interceptors
4- The Scout – Drakh (14.7)
GEG and Stealth and Scout on a Patrol level ship.
5- The Double V – Raiders (13.8)
Another poor defender that hits hard and comes in a 12 pack.

The Worst: (starting with the worst)
For the record I am skipping Breaching Pods and the Abbai’s Shyarie as they have no effective attack.
1- The Tishat – Minbari (0.7)
An excellent dog fighter, but weak against ships and only 3 flights per Raid point.
2- The Nial – Minbari and ISA (2.2)
One of the best fighters in the game, but at 3 flights per Raid point too little bang for the buck unless it comes carried on another ship.
3- The Kotha – Abbai (2.2)
No surprise here – only the fact that it comes in an 18 back keeps it from the bottom of the barrel.
4- The Tethys Missile Boat – Earthforce (2.3)
This one surprises me as I have a certain fear of packs of these little pests. Of course my calculations have not given it the benefit of its 20-inch range and they are quite fragile.
5- The Razik – Centauri (3.1)
Two dice of Weak weapons just isn’t going to get it done as a ship killer even in a 12 pack.

So there it is, you may now gather your torches and pitchforks… :)

Humbaba
 
Hmm.. interesting idea but Im not really sure it holds up that well in practice as theres too many factors your calculations dont take into account (the increased crit chances for the Tethys missile boat and its range as one example), also where was the Vree patrol level scout in that as I reckon thats got to rate at least CLOSE to the Corvan....
 
Locutus9956 said:
Hmm.. interesting idea but Im not really sure it holds up that well in practice as theres too many factors your calculations dont take into account (the increased crit chances for the Tethys missile boat and its range as one example), also where was the Vree patrol level scout in that as I reckon thats got to rate at least CLOSE to the Corvan....
Close but the flight & interceptors give the Corvan the title but not by much as +1 CQ is awesome. I think the Corvan is a better all rounder with higher hull & slightly more firepower overall.
Didn't see the Haven in the list either.
 
Well for the record, the extra damage gained by the increased critical chances is factored in, but the extra effects of critical hits are not considered (though I have also done the breakdown of each ships chance of scoring a critical hit per turn vs each hull value). As mentioned, range is not factored in, but that falls into the tactics and overall fleet balance category. If we drop a Tehtys into the thick of things, it cannot be expected to last for very long.

As for the Vree Vaarl scout saucer, its punch is a little better then the Corvan (about 10% or so) but it drops of defensively (stealth 5 vs stealth 4 plus interceptors) and the Corvan has the extra flight. The Vaarl ends up kind of upper middle of the pack at 9.8.

Now the Haven packs significantly more punch, but also suffers significantly in defense (8 damage to 12 for the Corvan, Dodge 5 vs Stealth 4 and Interceptors 1) and again the Corvan has the extra flight (which is a significant add for a Patrol level ship). The Haven is a middle of the pack ship at 7.3.

I plan to post the results for the other priority levels as well and I really look forward to the discussion of the Raid level ships – I was quite surprised at what sifted to the top.
 
Humbaba said:
As for the Vree Vaarl scout saucer, its punch is a little better then the Corvan (about 10% or so) but it drops of defensively (stealth 5 vs stealth 4 plus interceptors) and the Corvan has the extra flight. The Vaarl ends up kind of upper middle of the pack at 9.8.
But it is not meant to be offensive, or defensive. It is a scout. The +1 to CQ checks make it the best patrol level scout in the game.

If you're playing a Patrol level game, then your Patrol ships actually need to fight as well, so the Corvn might be better. But in Raid or above, the Vaarl is better by far.
 
The overall thing I think is that you cant just make up a system based on flat dmg output and toughness and asign scores for that as a ships actual usefulness, it factors out far too many things, if it was that simple then we'd have a point system just like that!
 
I've never been impressed by any Raider fighters...in general they're too slow for my taste.

Look foreward to seeing you at Kubla, Humbaba!

Chern
 
i was just wondering where the white star and white star fighters came in the list. And although the tishats and nials are expensive what about skin dncing? they doge a lot of fire that way, besides the nials pack a very heavy punch against capital ships, so theyre not that expensive, especially when you look how expensive white star fighters are.
 
Valen is my name said:
nials pack a very heavy punch against capital ships, so theyre not that expensive, especially when you look how expensive white star fighters are.
That is like saying 18ct white gold is not that expensive when you look at how expensive platinum is...

Compared to other fighters, for example Sentri, Frazi, Thunderbolt, even Kotha... buying either Nials or WS Fighters is incredibly expensive.
 
price in points yes, but price in terms of firepower they arent, thats what i was trying to get at. And i wasnt saying that they werent expensive, just not as expensive as a few others. Still, id rather take some nials or tishats than some of the other fighters mentioned, and i reckon that a fight between 3 nials and 12 double Vs could actually be quite a close run thing!
 
The problem that the numbers on this work have is that it seems to only be based on survivability. Where is the Hermes on this list? It has range 30 weapons and comes with a T-bolt. It's hull 4 with an interceptor, but tends to be more survivable as it outranges many things that can fire at it.

Plus, the Hermes can have range 30 ap dd precise weapons, which increase it's damage potential significantly.


Dave
 
I agree with Dave, The Hermes packs a mean long range punch (range 40" AP if you want to go to the extreme) and has T-bolt escort.
 
Humbaba said:
Well for the record, the extra damage gained by the increased critical chances is factored in, but the extra effects of critical hits are not considered (though I have also done the breakdown of each ships chance of scoring a critical hit per turn vs each hull value). As mentioned, range is not factored in, but that falls into the tactics and overall fleet balance category. If we drop a Tehtys into the thick of things, it cannot be expected to last for very long.

As for the Vree Vaarl scout saucer, its punch is a little better then the Corvan (about 10% or so) but it drops of defensively (stealth 5 vs stealth 4 plus interceptors) and the Corvan has the extra flight. The Vaarl ends up kind of upper middle of the pack at 9.8.

Now the Haven packs significantly more punch, but also suffers significantly in defense (8 damage to 12 for the Corvan, Dodge 5 vs Stealth 4 and Interceptors 1) and again the Corvan has the extra flight (which is a significant add for a Patrol level ship). The Haven is a middle of the pack ship at 7.3.

I plan to post the results for the other priority levels as well and I really look forward to the discussion of the Raid level ships – I was quite surprised at what sifted to the top.
Haven has 6 crew which is her downfall & the range stinks 4" for secondary weapons.
Corvan is better than the Vaarl because of the interceptors, Gives her so defense vs Fighters while the Vaarl becomes vunerable to them.
Depending on the Number of Targets the Corvan has more firepower.
Range really is a factor that needs to taken into account.
I wouldn't really say it's a tactical thing as it increases the firepower by being able fire earlier. More times you can fire the more firepower you have, Intiative could also be considered a factor but then it starts becoming a bit complicated.
 
Valen is my name said:
3 nials and 12 double Vs could actually be quite a close run thing!
Well lets assume it breaks down into 3 furballs. Each one is going to be 1 Nial vs 4 Double-V.

Turn 1: Nial +3 dogfight. Raiders +2 (-1 with 3 assists). Nial has a 21/31 chance of killing a Double V.
Turn 2: Nial +3 dogfight. Raiders +1 (-1 with 2 assists). Nial has a 26/32 chance of killing a Double V.
Turn 3: Nial +3 dogfight. Raiders +0 (-1 with 1 assist). Nial has a 30/33 chance of killing a Double V.
Turn 4: Nial +3 dogfight. Raiders -1. Nial has a 33/34 chance of winning.

Multiply them all together and what have you got... 21/31 * 26/32 * 30/33 * 33/34 = 0.486.

So yes, it is a very close thing. The Nial has a 48% chance of defeating 4 flights of Double V if a dogfight.

Now lets look at the anti-ship weapons...
Nial has 3 AD, AP.
4 flights of Double V have 8AD, AP at range 4" plus 16AD TL/W.

So they are pretty equal in a dogfight, but the Double V wing is far superior against ships.
 
Chernobyl said:
I've never been impressed by any Raider fighters...in general they're too slow for my taste.

Look foreward to seeing you at Kubla, Humbaba!

Chern
I just think all fighters are too slow, they need to be 15" or faster. Give them that zoom factor.
 
Humbaba said:
The Best:
1- The Porfatis – Pak’ma’ra (total rating 26.7)
Not very good defensively, but packs a punch and you get 12 for one Raid point.
2- The Thunderbolt – Earthforce (22.1)
Good offensively and defensively and you get 9
3- The Corvan – Centauri (16.1)
Our best non-auxiliary patrol level craft with Scout, Stealth, and Interceptors
4- The Scout – Drakh (14.7)
GEG and Stealth and Scout on a Patrol level ship.
5- The Double V – Raiders (13.8)
Another poor defender that hits hard and comes in a 12 pack.

The Worst: (starting with the worst)
For the record I am skipping Breaching Pods and the Abbai’s Shyarie as they have no effective attack.
1- The Tishat – Minbari (0.7)
An excellent dog fighter, but weak against ships and only 3 flights per Raid point.
2- The Nial – Minbari and ISA (2.2)
One of the best fighters in the game, but at 3 flights per Raid point too little bang for the buck unless it comes carried on another ship.
3- The Kotha – Abbai (2.2)
No surprise here – only the fact that it comes in an 18 back keeps it from the bottom of the barrel.
4- The Tethys Missile Boat – Earthforce (2.3)
This one surprises me as I have a certain fear of packs of these little pests. Of course my calculations have not given it the benefit of its 20-inch range and they are quite fragile.
5- The Razik – Centauri (3.1)
Two dice of Weak weapons just isn’t going to get it done as a ship killer even in a 12 pack.

So there it is, you may now gather your torches and pitchforks… :)

Humbaba
I like your attempt to rate them but agree with the others that you're limiting yourself by not factoring Interceptors, GEG, Critical effects, etc. I'd like to humbly offer my ratings of the ships/wings (also excluding Breaching Pods) available as follows:
(1.000 = Arbitrary Score and would be worth four of a ship worth 0.2500)

Modified Freighter (Raiders) 0.2667
Sho'Kov (Narn) 0.3689
Tethys Missile (EA) 0.3865
Kotha (Abbai) 0.4058
Guardhawk (Drazi) 0.4155
Flyer (Minbari) 0.4198
Nial (Minbari) 0.4364
Sho'Kos (Narn) 0.4454
Haven (Centauri) 0.4774
Tethys (EA) 0.4994
Tethys Laser (EA) 0.5069
Gorith (Narn) 0.5094
Tishat (Minbari) 0.5224
Nial (ISA) 0.5247
Falkiosi (Brakiri) 0.5419
Frazi (Narn) 0.5427
Sunhawk (Drazi) 0.5553
Rutarian (Centauri) 0.5601
Ximm (Vree) 0.5713
Sleekbird (Drazi) 0.5866
Delta-V (Raiders) 0.6162
Thorun (Dilgar) 0.6316
Tiger Starfury (Early) 0.6417
Sky Serpent (Drazi) 0.6465
Xaar (Vree) 0.6753
Delta-V2 (Raiders) 0.6800
Shadow Fighter (Shadows) 0.6951
Star Snake (Drazi) 0.7288
Sunhawk (Pak'ma'ra) 0.7566
Eyehawk (Drazi) 0.8067 (0.5142 without Scout)
Tzymm (Vree) 0.8191
Delta Double-V (Raiders) 0.8262
Jashakar (Dilgar) 0.8298 (0.5495 without Scout)
Starfury (Early EA) 0.8463
Hermes (EA) 0.8717
Starfury (DoTA EA) 0.8738
Sentri (Centauri) 0.8919
Starfury (Crusade EA) 0.9031
Vorlon Fighter (Vorlons) 09392
Razik (Centauri) 0.9665
Thunderbolt (DoTA EA) 0.9995
Bisaria (Abbai) 1.0132
Thunderbolt (Crusade EA) 1.0191
Myrmidon (EA) 1.0555
Tiraca (Abbai) 1.0676
Drakh Scout (Drakh) 1.0897 (0.7220 without Scout)
Starfury (ISA) 1.1586
Blue Star (ISA) 1.1648
Porfatis (Pak'ma'ra) 1.1935
Thunderbolt (ISA) 1.1954
Shyarie (Abbai) 1.2161 (0.6984 without Scout)
Vaarl (Vree) 1.4311 (0.5094 without Scout)
Corvan (Centauri) 1.5586 (1.1942 without Scout)

Obviously Scouts feature pretty highly on this list and that's because of their "fleet multiplying" effect of the Scout trait, although it should be noted that the Corvan would come top of this list even if it didn't have the Scout trait!

There are obviously one or two ships that perform slightly better in certain fleets than others (e.g. the Guardhawk in an all Drazi fleet is better than in a League fleet due to the initiative sink for boresights but even better than a Guardhawk would be almost any other ship available) but generally I believe this list holds fairly true.

Fighters generally perform poorly (I think we all knew that already due to the low numbers per wing) but there are one or two exceptions such as the Thunderbolt and most notably the Porfatis.

Edited to include Myrmidon and Blue Star
 
Actually I have to disagree on the Porfatis.

It's the same reason that the Nial example vs the Raider fighter is somewhat flawed. Initiative is huge in fighter figures because he who moves last (depending on speed) picks the dogfights (or AF attacks in some cases). In the Nial example above the first round is much more likely to be one nial vs one raider, not four on one. In the porfatis case they are extremely potent if they can get range without being engaged in a dogfight, but can almost never avoid these unless flown in escort formation where you lose half to get a shot from the AF weapon.

I don't believe Triggy's list factors in maneuverability and range well enough given the tiraca's location. But some patrol choices are also numbers taken dependent. The first two or three Corvans are a big deal after that scout has largely lost its value, where the tiraca continues to gain as you are more likely to get close enough with some to use the secondaries.

Ripple
 
Ripple said:
Actually I have to disagree on the Porfatis.

It's the same reason that the Nial example vs the Raider fighter is somewhat flawed. Initiative is huge in fighter figures because he who moves last (depending on speed) picks the dogfights (or AF attacks in some cases). In the Nial example above the first round is much more likely to be one nial vs one raider, not four on one. In the porfatis case they are extremely potent if they can get range without being engaged in a dogfight, but can almost never avoid these unless flown in escort formation where you lose half to get a shot from the AF weapon.

I don't believe Triggy's list factors in maneuverability and range well enough given the tiraca's location. But some patrol choices are also numbers taken dependent. The first two or three Corvans are a big deal after that scout has largely lost its value, where the tiraca continues to gain as you are more likely to get close enough with some to use the secondaries.

Ripple
The Porfatis absolutely depends on having fighters escort it to protect them and therefore work best in a League list but you're right that they can be vulnerable too.

Scouts you're dead on but that doesn't stop one or two of them being that good (that's one reason why my list has the scores in brackets: their value without Scout)

I've taken a list almost entirely of Tiracas and they've done pretty well (winning a tournament) so I think this is part of the general underestimation of the Abbai in general. Of course, range is important and I have factored it in but people may vary in how important it is (the Tiraca in particular is fast enough that it rarely requires more than one or two turns to get into range with All Power to Engines and has the turns to stay in amongst them but other people may see this differently).
 
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