The B5 Hit Point System - Do we need an alternate?

Morden

Mongoose
OK, so I'm not going to say tha tthe hit point system in the core B5 book is broken. It does work, especially when you're running a game that focuses on the station, diplomacy, ship to ship combat, etc. I'm not about to argue the wisdom in setting it up the way it appears in the book. However, I do think there's some reason to tinker with the system a bit to accomodate different play styles.

In B5 we know that combat is lethal, and that is how it should be. B5 uses the D&D 3.0 core book for its baseline mechanics. Under the 3.0 rules, you make a massive damage check once you sustain 50 HP of damage in a round (or is it one blow, I don't remember, not that it matters for this discussion anyway). In order to keep combat deadly, Mongoose set very low limits on hit points.

One of the proposed changes that JMS pitched with Crusade was to make it more action oriented. Granted, what TNT wanted was a lot more action than JMS was prepared for (something that led to the untimely demise of what could have been a grat show) but an action oriented version of B5 would require more gunplay, more melee fights, etc. which would result in the need for more hit points if you want to keep your character alive.

A system that I propose, which borrows a page from the D20 Modern book, is to allow characters to gain a set hit die per level, but vary your massive damage threshold depending on the type of game you want to run. If you want to keep the game light and fluffy, keep massive damage at 50 and don't worry about it. Characters will be much harder to kill. If you want to make the game dark and gritty, set the massive damage at the character's Con score. If the character sustains as many points in a round as they have Con, they need to make a save or fall unconscious. You could make it slightly lighter by making it so that you only make the massive damage save if your character suffers an amount of damage equal to their Con score from a single blow. You could also set the number at an arbitrary number, such as 25.

In the D20 system, the average Con score is 12. A standard PPG deals 2d6/X2 points of damage. What this means is that there's a 1 in 12 chance per ordinary PPG shot that the average character will need to make a save after being hit. If the hit is critical then the chances go up considerably. Of course other weapons in the game deal more damage than this.

What changing this rule does is make the game a bit more cinematic. A hit now means that you were grazed rather than taking the brunt of the shot to a vital part of the body. You can now have a moer action oriented game and potentially get into more than one gun battle without having to recussitate half of your party. It also allows the game master the ability to set the lethality of their game. I know that a lot of GM's (myself included) really don't like killing characters unless the player is doing something to bring it upon him or herself. The GM is given more flexibility and doesn't have to resort to fudging die rolls in order to keep the characters from needlessly dying.
 
My group and I made it so that you use your constitution for your hit points and they remain stable. Your hit points as gained in the game count to "Vitality" and are calculated the exact same way for the game. Still, even high level characters don't have much vitality, and it makes all the players really work for that "What is in this room to hide behind?" thought :) I think it works really well for our group.
 
Hey Babylon 5 Aide ! That's exactly the system I was planning to use in my upcoming campaign. Based on Star Wars d20, this mechanic makes Contitution much more meaningful IMHO. 8)
 
Yeah, the vitality and wound point system does make quite a bit of sense and it ends up working quite a bit like the variable massive damage system. What I like about massive damage is that its a bit more malleable than WP/WP, but either system would work well for a B5 game that is a bit more focused on action.
 
You're right Baraendur, in fact why not settle for the best of both world? I'll use the CON score for starting Hit pts, then I'll add the class dice at each level, treating them as normal Hit pts. I'll also set the massive damage at the character's Con score (during a given round, not a single hit).

My main gripe with the current system (which is still well thought of from a design point of view) is that there's no incentative to put one of your high score on CON since it has no positive effect on skills or HP. For all your trouble, you receive a measly bonus to your chance of stabilizing. Any power gamer will realize this and put one of his lower score on CON... :shock: This house rule should give some lustre and balance back to this ability score.

In the end, it's only a matter of personal taste; I wish to state again that the basic mechanic is far from broken, as Baraendur pointed out in his original post.
 
Agreed. And I actually like the idea of having fewer HP's because it does make it more deadly, and you don't wind up being almost invincable. I rarely get hit with my character though, as he is always hiding behind something :) I sure don't give them an easy target :)
 
But in B5, combat is deadly. How many people have you seen get shot with a ppg and not be seriously injured? In B5, if you get hit, you're in trouble, not "oh, I've been shot, that make 12 times this combat, I think I'll be just fine."
Just my thoughts.
 
TheAntisocial said:
But in B5, combat is deadly. How many people have you seen get shot with a ppg and not be seriously injured? In B5, if you get hit, you're in trouble, not "oh, I've been shot, that make 12 times this combat, I think I'll be just fine."
Just my thoughts.

Just my two-penneth, but I like the hitpoints the way they are now, otherwise the Vorlons have got to have at least a thousand hit points apiece.

Compared to other D20 products, Star Wars springs to mind, I like the fact that combat is so lethal in B5. Often, combat is the option that players use to get out of any situation. In B5, personnal combat is the last resort, because it is last resort in every sense of the word.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the concept of lethal combat for B5. My only concern is trying to put more usefuleness back to the CON score.

I came up with a variant rule that is less cinematic than Star Wars (Vitality points) but still take CON into CONsideration (sorry, could'nt help it :p ) :
Just use the current system but add a CON bonus every level for extreme scores.

Code:
CON          Bonus
 3            -4
 4            -3
 5            -2
 6            -1
7-14           0
 15           +1
 16           +2
 17           +3
 18           +4
That way extreme CON score have some impact so that a hardy Narn soldier could really take a beating compared to a feeble diplomat (or what have you).
 
From an earlier thread, there were some options presented:

KDLadage said:
OK... now for some of my ideas (more later and this weekend):

Setting the Tone with Hit Points: In the default Babylon-5 setting, we have a bit of a dichotomy. On the one hand, hit points are kept relatively low (1d6+a few to start; then you get 1, 2, or 3 hit points each level thereafter) in order to ensure that combat is deadly and something to be avoided; on the other hand,a 20th level Soldier can have as many as [1d6 + 6 + (3 x 20)] 72 hit points -- at which time, a PPG to the chest is not much of a threat. Several optional rules can be employed to make sure that this is not a troublesome thing. You can use the rules as written; this produces a game that, at low (and even medium levels), the game is relatively deadly, with some chances of survival even in heavy combat. Please keep in mind that Hit Points are not all bodily injury; some of it is survival and luck. Some other optional rules, however, include:
  1. Deadly Critical (variant 1): In this variation on the rules, critical hits do NOT roll damage twice. Instead, they force a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the damage inflicted). If this save is made, then nothing additional happens. If it is failed, then the character immediately drops to -1 hit points and is dying. This option has the advantage of making combat deadly for all involved -- any hit could be the big one. It also makes the hits that do this, relatively rare (only on a critical hit). Any hit that would drop the character to -1 or lower hit points even if the save is made can be ignored, as it has no additional effect. Example: a character is hit with a critical. The damage rolled is 12 points. The Fortitude save is then DC 22 to avoid being dropped to -1 hit points.
  2. Deadly Critical (variant 2): This is the same as the variant above, only the critical hit still rolls damage twice. However, the DC for the same is equal to the damage dealt instead of 10 + damage dealt. Example: a character is hit with a critical. The damage rolled is 12 points and 9 points for a total of 21 points of damage. The Fortitude save is then DC 21 to avoid being dropped to -1 hit points.
  3. Massive Damage Threshold: In this the rule from d20 Modern. The MDT for a character is equal to the character's CON score. Any and all damage that exceeds this causes the character to make a Fortitude save or drop to -1 HP immediately. The Fort save DC can be tailored to the deadliness of the game desired. Typical DCs include 10 (low lethality), 15 (moderate lethality), 20 (high lethality), 25 (extreme lethality).
  4. Extremely Low Hit Points: In this variation on the Hit Point rules, characters do not roll hit points. Instead, all medium sized creatures have 10 base hit points, and then add their Fortitude save to this. Thus, the most massively tough (and virtually flat as far as development goes) character the game could produce would have 10 (base) + 7 (CON score of 18, plus a racial mod of +2, raised 5 times to 25) + 12 (Fortitude Save bonus at 20th level) + 16 (Toughness Feat taken 8 times) = 45 hit points. A more typical character (even at 20th level) would have 10 (base) + 2 (Con bonus) + 6 (Fortitude Save bonus at 20th level) + 2 (Toughness feat) = 20 Hit Points.
  5. Dramatist (Dungeons and Dragons style) Hit Points: In this variation, hit points are handed out as per the old D&D rules. You get a new Hit Die each level, CON mods apply to each die, and you get max hit points at first level. All classes that grant +1 HP per level receive a d6 hit die; all classes that grant +2 HP per level receive a d8 hit die; all classes that grant +3 HP per level receive a d10 hit die. Optionally, you can allow for 'minor NPC' versions of each class can grant a hit die one size lower (i.e: d4, d6 and d8 respectively) without making any other changes to the classes to ensure things are more in equal footing as with other games. One thing to note is that in this version of the Hit Points, Toughness should be restored to its original +3 HP version.

Options 1, 2 and 3 can be implemented without making any further changes to the rules. These only effect critical or large amounts of damage and so should have minor impacts on the game except at much higher levels.

Option 4 should be used with extreme caution. Also, use a multiplier after the calculations for creatures that are larger or smaller than medium sized (HPx2 for large followed by x4, x8, x16 as you go up in size; HP/2 for small followed by /4, /8, /16 as you go down in size). Also, keep in mind that every single point of damage in this option is actual bodily injury -- hit points have no luck or endurance aspect any longer.

Option 5 should be used on in the most cinematic of games. In games like this, it should be possible for a medium-high level Soldier to wade into battle against numerous foes and come out alive, or even without breaking a sweat.

By combining these options, you can tailor the deadliness and tone of your game futher. Options 1, 2 and 3 can each be combined successfully with the standard hit point rules, or with options 4 or 5.

In fact, d20 Modern (effectively) uses options 3 and 5 together.

However, note that adding anything to option 4 that is designed to make combat more deadly can lead to total-party-kills on a regular basis. Extreme caution should be used.

I would like, again, to point out that having this guy leave these message baords has been a loss. Has anyone tried to contact him and find out why he left?
 
I'm a fan of d20 Modern, and like having hit points per dice, and your CON is your Massive Damage Threshold. If it's over your CON, Fort save vs DC15 or straight to -1 you go. Also allows the feat "Improved MDT" that makes your Threshold CON+3 and is stackable...
 
MrFilthyIke: Thanks, I'll add this to my house rule. :)

You're right, Shadowpunk, the B5 board's buzz have dropped quite a bit since KDladage left. :cry: He had a knack for starting constructive debates that really stirred things up. I believe he got back to playing AoG B5 Wars. All hope is not lost though, as he said that he could get some interest back in this game depending on the variant rules present in the upcoming B5 Companion.
So keep your fingers crossed !

I also noted that another great contributor (a real walking B5 encyclopedia), namely ShadowScout, is less active than before. But it is understandable: it's quite a contract to convert Mongoose stuff in GURPS. :shock: I'd love to see that as my group love GURPS and I'm confident that he can pull it out...
 
the way I have used is to let the Con bonus apply at 1st level, when the character is made. It has been a nice, but not to over reaching advantage for having a high Con.
 
My house rules for 1st level are, half con (round up)+class bonus, and a char can go to -con before death. This keep hp low, but gives starting chars a fighting chance.
 
Another thing you can do is take part of the damage system from Gladiator (I think) where the amount of damage you take (a percentage of your hit points) gives you minuses to rolls and such to represent pain and the like.

I don't have the table right in front of me so I can't enter it in here but it's a thought at least.
 
It add to the realism as B5 should be, but as any realistic addition, it has the downside to slow the game down. -Sigh- Guess you can't have everything at once : fast-pace action AND realism.
It sure is a good storytelling tool as you explain the penalty, like: "Your aim is wavering as you're still recovering from that wound...Your vision even blurs for a moment. So you shoot at -4"
 
I am using Constitution points in place of the generic -10 is dead.

While BP's hit location system was difficult for me to use I liked it for role playing reasons.

Sidney
 
Hmm, having read all the options, I think bringing the VP/WP system to B5 might be the best idea.

The game remains pretty deadly; the only diference is that characters now have about 10-18 more "HPs". Also, with criticals now applying direct to WPs, a single shot from a powerful weapon is still potentialy deadly even at the highest levels so cover is still a very good thing. Further, its easy enough to have "low NPCs" who simply don't have vitality points.

The main advantage of this system is that it makes the characters a bit more survivable at the lower levels. Sure, combat is deadly in Babylon 5, but lets face it, Sheridan, Garibaldi and Sinclair got shot at a LOT of times; combat >should< be a dangerous and last-resort alternative, but in the B5 universe it still manages to happen very often (Dilgar War, Minbari War, Mars Riots, Narn-Centauri War, Shadow War, Earth Civil War, ISA-Cenautri War, Drakh Attacks...not to mention minor conflicts and gunfights by the bucket) and for a DM looking for a slightly more combat oriented game (ala Crusade, perhaps?) this seems to be the best alternative.

Oe thing I'm considering is...in SW, armor DR applies to VPs as well as WPs. I'm considering changing that. If VPs are the cinematic "near misses", why would armor affect this very much? Sure, it can be rationalized, but I think for B5 armor should only protect WPs.

Thoughts?

-Greyward
 
Let me just throw this out there:

A variant I plan on using is to have every class get a 1D4 + the hitpoints listed in the class descriptor. This die would need to be rolled at every level (even 1st) so there is no max hitpoints automatically for 1st level.
Then the Massive damage threashold would be the con score ala D20 Modern.

I know this is very similar to the systems proposed here, I just thought that since this topic has been presented, I'd let y'all know what I had worked up...

Slingbld~
 
Greyward said:
One thing I'm considering is...in SW, armor DR applies to VPs as well as WPs. I'm considering changing that. If VPs are the cinematic "near misses", why would armor affect this very much? Sure, it can be rationalized, but I think for B5 armor should only protect WPs.

Thoughts?
I understand where you're coming from and I agree with you on the concept. But for game balance, I'd keep DR on at all time since the armor should be meaningful otherwise no one would bother to use it. Given the extra weight and their limited availability, it have to give some advantages...

slingbld said:
A variant I plan on using is to have every class get a 1D4 + the hitpoints listed in the class descriptor. This die would need to be rolled at every level (even 1st) so there is no max hitpoints automatically for 1st level.
Then the Massive damage threashold would be the con score ala D20 Modern.
It's an interesting alternative, yes.

Thanks both of you for your comments!
 
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