Talia and Lyda

El Cid

Mongoose
If I recall correctly, Talia is rated as a P13 due to Ironheart's gift.

Lyda is rated as a P12 due to the Vorlon augmentation.

Bester is rated a P12.

Now for my confusion, Lyda stated to Garibaldi that she was the BIG weapon and was able to control 50 plus folks at a time.

I never did see Bester do anything nearly as powerful nor did I see and indication that Bester could do something that powerful from the PSI Corps trilogy.

It seems to me that Lyda is much higher than a P12 after being augmented and touched by the Vorlons The last sentence on page 8 does leave room for future upgrading of Lyta's P level and abilities.

Sidney
 

Jal

Mongoose
Lyta doesn`t switch to Vorlon mode straight away, going by the show it happened a bit at a time.

she didn`t get to the "Miss Vorlon Timebomb" level until very near the end of the series. :wink:
 

ShadowScout

Mongoose
Lyta ought to be around P-15 by the time she get's the hang of her vorlon powers (season-5) and starts telling people about it. Remember, she doesn't start experimenting in earnest 'till after Byron gets flamed...
 

Ranger66

Mongoose
It's a shame they never resolved the Talia story arc. When she turned bad Garibaldi remembered that Kosh had recorded stuff from Talia and that leave it with him as he wanted to do some checking. I never saw any referance to it after that episode.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I think that Lyta is far more powerful than a P12.

The way Bester slammed into her walls in that one episode as an example.

Or her actions on Mars in Endgame - I don't think a PSI Cop could do that.

I think she was a P5, but after the Vorlons... much more.

Razuur
 

frobisher

Mongoose
Ranger66 said:
It's a shame they never resolved the Talia story arc. When she turned bad Garibaldi remembered that Kosh had recorded stuff from Talia and that leave it with him as he wanted to do some checking. I never saw any referance to it after that episode.

Talia's story pretty much finished with that episode (the actress was leaving the series with no intent to return).

I guess what we saw though was one of jms' infamous "trap doors".

IF he couldn't get Pat Talman (sp?) on a regular basis as Lyta, he'd need the plot space that either of them could occupy (and ultimately the one Lyta filled), occupied.

So (and this is pure speculation) what if this recording gave Kosh the template to create a teep like the augmented Talia?

Perhaps instead of Lyta coming aboard augmented, we'd have got another teep who'd gone looking for Vorlons, except she'd have a core dump of Talia (and her powers) living in her head...
 
frobisher said:
Ranger66 said:
It's a shame they never resolved the Talia story arc. When she turned bad Garibaldi remembered that Kosh had recorded stuff from Talia and that leave it with him as he wanted to do some checking. I never saw any referance to it after that episode.

Talia's story pretty much finished with that episode (the actress was leaving the series with no intent to return).

I guess what we saw though was one of jms' infamous "trap doors".

IF he couldn't get Pat Talman (sp?) on a regular basis as Lyta, he'd need the plot space that either of them could occupy (and ultimately the one Lyta filled), occupied.

So (and this is pure speculation) what if this recording gave Kosh the template to create a teep like the augmented Talia?

Perhaps instead of Lyta coming aboard augmented, we'd have got another teep who'd gone looking for Vorlons, except she'd have a core dump of Talia (and her powers) living in her head...

I know that Talia was powerful what with Ironheart and the Psi corp 'moding' her, but was she really more powerful than the Vorlons could have made themselves?
 

frobisher

Mongoose
shem_whistler said:
I know that Talia was powerful what with Ironheart and the Psi corp 'moding' her, but was she really more powerful than the Vorlons could have made themselves?

Perhaps - Kosh did become very interested in her the very next episode when he took the recording.

Throughout the series we had the standard SF cliche that "humans were the key" - we had a special place in what was to come. Certainly it looks like we evolve to the same or even past the level of the Vorlons in a mere million years, the implication is that the First Ones, by virtue of being long lived endured evolution at a slower rate and took quite a bit longer (excepting Lorien and the "others") to get to their current states.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Lyta and Sheridan were aware that she was more powerful than Bester when they took Bester to Zahdoom (sp and I don't feel like looking it up :!: ).

She smirked when he painfully reflected off her shields, it was no suprise to her. I think that part of this was the personality that JMS built for the character. She was well aware of what the Vorlons did, however, without a point of reference of having used her powers unrestrained and without reguard to others would have been out of character.

She did not become that almost ruthless character until backed into a corner. She did that when she and Dr. Franklin went in search of the Centari bodies of their soliders killed in action. She took control of several assailients and even made one shoot himself in the head (if that's not Mind Control, I don't know what is) and left him aware of what his body was doing (pretty coldblooded if you ask me) without any chance of stopping his hand.

Every other time she did something like that, she was backed into a corner, except when it came to Bester. She took please in making him squirm.

She showed some powers that others seemed to not have such as TK (and don't play the that was not answered in the show, it was when she left with G'Kar and she released herself from her shackles), and a form of Clairavoyance when she was search the different air shafts mentally with Byron. All of this seemed to come from the Vorlon enhancement.

Don't tell me she was just a P12 after the enhancement. She was at least a P16 - P20 with some kind of restraint, personal or Vorlon.

I think the recording was another of JMS's "Trap Doors" and that they could remove the character if she had been introduced into the Inner circle, Kosh knew from the recordings that she was a "Sleeper" and gave the recording to Garibaldi as insurance.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
By the By...where did you see that Lyta was a P12 after the Vorlon's enhanced her?
 

frobisher

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
Don't tell me she was just a P12 after the enhancement. She was at least a P16 - P20 with some kind of restraint, personal or Vorlon.

Given Vorlons are rated at P15, I'd draw a line there myself... She may be a P12 intinially, but I very much got the impression she grew into her abilities and increased in power from the start of season 3 through to the end of season 5.

Anonymous said:
I think the recording was another of JMS's "Trap Doors" and that they could remove the character if she had been introduced into the Inner circle, Kosh knew from the recordings that she was a "Sleeper" and gave the recording to Garibaldi as insurance.

My gut feeling is no there given that Tallia became a sleeper so that jms could write her out at that point. I also seem to recall that jms said at the time that Garibaldi got nothing out of Kosh in regards the recording.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
frobisher said:
Given Vorlons are rated at P15, I'd draw a line there myself... She may be a P12 intinially, but I very much got the impression she grew into her abilities and increased in power from the start of season 3 through to the end of season 5.

Vorlons are rated P15 by whom? Mongoose? JMS? I wish he would come out with a P-rating list that extended to the First Ones, Jason Ironheart after "Becoming", etc.

frobisher said:
My gut feeling is no there given that Tallia became a sleeper so that jms could write her out at that point. I also seem to recall that jms said at the time that Garibaldi got nothing out of Kosh in regards the recording.

Yes, he had a "Trap Door" for every character and episode. The man is one of the most complex writers I have ever seen. He had so many ties that some were so subtle, that you don't always catch them until you have watched the whole series. I believe that is why so many people liked it since the whole series was planned out, not just thrown together as most to the STNG seemed to have gone to.

I am one of those annoying people that figured out "Who dunit" half way through most books and movies. He follows his own hooks that he put out. Sometimes he even suprised me and not by some unannownced technology (which seemed to be how STNG tended to do things).

He stated that the origional idea for the recording was as possible black mail by Kosh. Only Kosh was suprised what he found and it is possible that he would have left it for Garibaldi at a later time if he needed that "Trap Door".
 

frobisher

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
Vorlons are rated P15 by whom? Mongoose? JMS? I wish he would come out with a P-rating list that extended to the First Ones, Jason Ironheart after "Becoming", etc.

AoG and Mongoose - both sources approved by WB and jms :)
 

bob_morden

Mongoose
sound quite absurd to me ..... given the major powers the first one have.

and i would like to hear this from mongoose people... and if they've actually given a p-rating for vorlons this low, i would be interested to hear the logical path that led them to this conclusion .....

the vorlons have created telepath in a thousand world, shouldn't they be represented a little more powerful to do so ?


besides that, i'm fine !! ;) !!
 

frobisher

Mongoose
bob_morden said:
sound quite absurd to me ..... given the major powers the first one have.

and i would like to hear this from mongoose people... and if they've actually given a p-rating for vorlons this low, i would be interested to hear the logical path that led them to this conclusion .....

the vorlons have created telepath in a thousand world, shouldn't they be represented a little more powerful to do so ?

It's almost certainly not a linear scale, so a P15 is significantly more powerful than a P12, especially if you've had a million or so years to accumulate telepathic abilities :)

The original pegging of that level came from AoG's B5Wars supplement "Coming of the Shadows", which records the "normal" range as 1 to 12, with some rare cases exceeding that but nothing above 15, and noting that all Vorlons are telepaths rated P15.

To create telepaths (genetically) you don't actually have to be telepathic yourself, just to have a good idea of the genes involved.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Of course it's a moot point if Bester was telling the truth about what happened to Talia.
 
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