System defences and passive ship detection, targeting.

Reynard said:
These uber defense systems will guarantee total bankruptcy of any system. .

Nope. This type of system is uber cheap. But, one would have to familiar with technology in general to know that. Otherwise, they'd believe that it was exotic and expensive. :lol:
 
The volume of space needing such a ort cloud system is enormous so a cheap system bloats very quickly. As Spock said, he thinks two dimensionally.

One would have to familiar with such items to know that. :wink:
 
Reynard said:
The volume of space needing such a ort cloud system

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I could probably point to you some good sites that give primers in physical science. Good place to start.
 
Using modern naval practices as a guide; you could use one ship to actively 'ping', then data-link the targeting information to the other ships, while it relocates hurriedly!
 
Rick said:
Using modern naval practices as a guide; you could use one ship to actively 'ping', then data-link the targeting information to the other ships, while it relocates hurriedly!

Yep, that's what this set up is. Just using hidden radar pods. Passive radar acquisition.
 
sideranautae said:
Rick said:
Using modern naval practices as a guide; you could use one ship to actively 'ping', then data-link the targeting information to the other ships, while it relocates hurriedly!

Yep, that's what this set up is. Just using hidden radar pods. Passive radar acquisition.

The costs to cover the entire system with them would still be gigantic as any form of light lag between the target and the next pod would disrupt the target lock. And even if you only go for detection, the maximum range for active radar in traveller is 50k kilometers, so you need to drop at least one pod every 100k kilometers in every direction if you want a full net of them.
I am sure someone can calculate how many you need to cover the solar system as example with that density.

Don't forget that you also have to maintain such a net and I am sure you will have eventually ships crashing with some of the pods when they come out of jumpspace in addition to the usual micrometeorites, etc. You would probably need several ships working fulltime to maintain the net.

Instead, such a system still could only cover key points. Inhabited planets would have enough own radar stations to not need extra hidden pods. It works well for gas giant or free fooating station defense, though
 
Exactly how many thousands or hundreds of thousands at what efficient distance from a central command would be needed to create an efficient, interconnected spherical net around a protected world? Now multiply that for each valuable target in a single system. What kind of expensive equipment and manpower is needed to operate this net? If nothing else, it reduces candidate worlds down to a tiny fraction of a stellar population. Such worlds will already have priority with ship operations.

Seems easier for fleets to steadily pick off all the vast numbers of worlds that can't afford such a security system.
 
EvilDM said:
sideranautae said:
Rick said:
Using modern naval practices as a guide; you could use one ship to actively 'ping', then data-link the targeting information to the other ships, while it relocates hurriedly!

Yep, that's what this set up is. Just using hidden radar pods. Passive radar acquisition.

The costs to cover the entire system with them would still be gigantic as any form of light lag between the target and the next pod would disrupt the target lock. And even if you only go for detection, the maximum range for active radar in traveller is 50k kilometers, so you need to drop at least one pod every 100k kilometers in every direction if you want a full net of them.
I am sure someone can calculate how many you need to cover the solar system as example with that density.

Don't forget that you also have to maintain such a net and I am sure you will have eventually ships crashing with some of the pods when they come out of jumpspace in addition to the usual micrometeorites, etc. You would probably need several ships working fulltime to maintain the net.

Instead, such a system still could only cover key points. Inhabited planets would have enough own radar stations to not need extra hidden pods. It works well for gas giant or free fooating station defense, though


If you're talking about a solid one-per-hundred kiloklick web, then putting a shell of them at the 100d limit would require about five hundred*. A better question is whether the radar range given is realistic for modern equipment.

Also bear in mind that passive radar isn't really about setting up a series of beacons - it's about using naturally occuring sources of radio emission - other space traffic, orbital installations, hell, sunspots.


*
Earth's Diameter 12700 km.
100D limit 12700x100=1270000 km.
Radius of 100D limit in 100k km 'units' 1270000/2/1000000=6.35
Surface area of 100D limit in 100k km 'units' 4xPIx6.35^2=507
 
locarno24 said:
If you're talking about a solid one-per-hundred kiloklick web, then putting a shell of them at the 100d limit would require about five hundred*. A better question is whether the radar range given is realistic for modern equipment.

Also bear in mind that passive radar isn't really about setting up a series of beacons - it's about using naturally occuring sources of radio emission - other space traffic, orbital installations, hell, sunspots.


*
Earth's Diameter 12700 km.
100D limit 12700x100=1270000 km.
Radius of 100D limit in 100k km 'units' 1270000/2/1000000=6.35
Surface area of 100D limit in 100k km 'units' 4xPIx6.35^2=507

100k is for active. Passive is one every 20k.
 
And this is only for the main world. If this net is set up at or near the 100d, I'd say the attacking force has an advantage when jumping in and bearing down on a target. If this is the only warning system, the outer installations and gas giants are easy pickings.
 
Reynard said:
And this is only for the main world. If this net is set up at or near the 100d, I'd say the attacking force has an advantage when jumping in and bearing down on a target. If this is the only warning system, the outer installations and gas giants are easy pickings.

If the stations go dark, that's a warning in itself.


I'd like to point out that a planetary/system detection system wouldn't be constrained by the limits of a star ship sensor package. You would have system larger and more sensitive than any starship could mount. The ground stations tracking space probes are more than capable of detecting a weak radio signal at over 100 million miles. But they cheat, the tracking stations use dishes bigger then most starships.
an orbiting array of antennas, or an array built on a nearby moon would have hundreds of antenna arrays sweeping the sky 24/7, along with strategically placed satellites, and patrol craft.

In the 1950s the US spent around one billion on it's continental defense network...assuming a planet like Jewel, spend the same credit per person amount on defense..a reasonable amount considering how close they are to a formerly belligerent state. they can afford a defense network worth tens of billions a year.( 6.3 billion times 10 Cr per person for defense)

assuming 10% of the budget goes to system surveillance and security...that's around 6 billion a year. 1 billion of that could by one hundred Mcr 10 satellites a year...the upkeep would be around 1 million a month. over a ten year period they could purchase and place 1000 surveillance sats with yearly upkeep and repair totaling only a fraction of the yearly budget.

if you make a rough estimate of another 1 to 3 billion credits being spent on ground stations, and space based sensor networks... it's not exactly a budget breaker...considering a satellite with extended arrays can cover a sphere 300,000 kilometers across that's a sphere 30 million miles across with only 200 satellites( 2 billion credits)..after ten years that's a detection sphere of over 300 billion miles at a grand expenditure of 10 billion..spread out over ten years.

it's not a perfect seamless detection grid, but it can protect key installations, the main planet and the most common refuel sites in the system. the exact placement of the satellites, and illumination stations wold be tricky, and it would leave shadows from large objects but with a bit of engineering and tactical placement the sphere would allow any larger system to control local planetary space with some degree of confidence.
High Guard Page 45
Distributed Arrays: (TL 11, triples weight and cost of sensor suite
and associated signal processing). By using multiple hull mounted
arrays in an integrated computer controlled arrangement, it is
possible to increase the effective sensor antenna size and increase
the longest range of the sensor (all increased range performance is
at “minimal” level of detail). Visual and Thermal sensors can now
detect at Very Distant Range (from 150,000 to 300,000km), EM and
active radar/lidar to Distant range (50,000–150,000km) and passive
radar/lidar to Long range. This modification can not be added to
standard sensors and can only be added to ships of 5,000 tons
displacement or more. Due to their surface area requirements only
one sensor suite per craft can be fitted with distributed or extended
arrays.
Extended Arrays: As per the distributed array, but as the arrays are
extended well beyond the hull of the ship on retractable arms, there
is no limit on the size of the ship. However, with the arms extended
the ship can be detected at a +2 DM by all sensors bar NAS and it
may not use its manoeuvre or jump drive.
 
Back
Top