Subdermal Armor too strong

[Sty0pa]

Sure it's expensive, but at the point characters are starting to count in MCr it's trivial considering the survival benefits and ability to stack with any other armor. That cost's not much of a brake.
(A reminder to GMs that RAW 'natural-looking' and 'invisitech' costs still apply; subdermal without them is obvious and imo would likely apply a -1 SOC for 'weirdo' factor in most cases. "Are you cosplaying a combat robot?")

I'm still inclined to add some reality-factors:
DEX is the impact on the character's DEX stat for the augment installation
Min Dmg: the armor is under your tissues; meaning anything it stops is automatically still causing some harm: For damage that penetrates other external armors and hits the subdermal, this is the amount of damage taken 'before' the subdermal is deployed; eg TL11 if the character takes 3 points of incoming damage, 1 will affect the character and the next 2 are blocked by the subdermal.
TL12: the character can decide on installation EITHER the armor impairs DEX by 1 (and has no min dmg), or doesn't affect DEX but the min dmg is 1.

TL	DEX	Min Dmg Inbound
10	-2	2
11	-1	1
12	0*(-1)	0*(1)
14	0	0

 

[hopsnbaer]

You could also just make the lower TL be obvious and give social minuses. It's not something that I think is a major issue. If the players are wearing Cloth armor, it can still be defeated pretty easily. Especially since the TL12 +4 Cloth Armor that goes undeer anything has been removed from the CSC.

If they stack it with noticeably heavier armor, there are already laws and social pressure against it, depending on where they are located.

If you are talking about Combat Armor, or something stronger is expected. Enemies should have a counter.

 

[hopsnbaer]

There is also nothing wrong with making it harder to get. Increase the price and availability roll for being a Military Augment.

I understand how things like that can mess with your game. Especially if the antagonists you want to put against the players are guys in leather coats with auto pistols or knives.

Don't forget that it can interfere with medical checks if they are hurt. They will need advanced facilities.

 

[MonsterX]

If you want to go with reality-based factors to discourage it, I'd start with the question "how did it get there?" Because the answer to that question is not pretty. Your complications could develop complications.

This is not like getting an ear pierced. It is not something you do outpatient without anesthetic.

 

[rinku]

Just wait until a character with it has to get medical treatment on a TL8 world. That's a major balancing factor over armour you can take off.

Being refused entry to somewhere that does not allow armour is another point. Even the natural look is easily detectable if they're screening for that sort of thing.

And... their person may well be illegal on some worlds. Always a risk with implants.

I would certainly think that the usual "All Armour" prohibition at Law Level 9+ generally applies.

As well, Cloth is banned at Law Level 4 and Mesh at Law Level 5. So I'd suggest only the +1 protection version of subdermal is legal at LL5-8, since the +3 version protects more than Mesh.

(If it wasn't clear from the above, I also don't think there's any need to further penalise subdermal armour. It's not even that efficient.)

 

[Vormaerin]

I don't think it is actually that significant of a problem. But if I did, I would generally either let the players know that I'm not using that sort of cyberware, make some kind of clear mechanical trade off as the OP did, or tone down its value.

I am not, generally, a big fan of "You can have the thing, but I'm going to persecute you for getting it" as an approach. If it is a rare problem that adds flavor to a location once in a while, that's fine. But if it comes up regularly, it's generally not fun.

 

[Saladman]

I've long been liking Traveller better with a curated equipment list than with purely open book purchasing. So I'd be the last person to complain if you banned it or limited it.

Simultaneously, I haven't yet seen it be a problem in actual play. I even like to see it rolled as a starting benefit, it's useful enough to be cool but not actually game breaking.

 

[rinku]

Yeah. And you need two of those to upgrade from +1 protection to +3 anyway.

 

[Leman Gunner]

If your travellers invested MChr. in their armor, their enemies probably have used AP / APDS ammunition. It could be time for a talk to them about the percieved powerlevel and if they want to start the spiral of upgrades.

If you want to go the realistic route:

• If they want to ever increase it, they will have to pay someone to remove the old one.
• They have RAW medical detriment.
• The lower levels might get paramilitary status, but TL 12+ could be military only. So they need connections to get the parts and to implant them. Having that stuff installed might garner attention.
• You could rule that equipment in the MChr. range needs maintaining, same rules as ships could apply.
• You could make a houseroule to give Characters "Slots" for Cyberware. If something else looks more benefitial, they can choose that without getting punished for wanting armor.
• If their opposition learns of their heavy armor combinations, they can field heavy weapons if their background allows it.

They would have to invest to keep the infrastructure for themselves in place. Not impossible, but hiring a technician, doctor and autodoc with the relevant TLs and skills is not that trivial. Otherwise their travels will be pretty restrictive.

 

[rinku]

To be fair, even the +3 Subdermal Armour is only TL11, so for that specifically the medical angle won't come up often. Default interstellar TL is 12, so a ship's resources won't usually have a penalty. Unless they have something spicier as well.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Just wait until a character with it has to get medical treatment on a TL8 world. That's a major balancing factor over armour you can take off.

Being refused entry to somewhere that does not allow armour is another point. Even the natural look is easily detectable if they're screening for that sort of thing.

And... their person may well be illegal on some worlds. Always a risk with implants.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Years ago when CyberPunk first came out I remember long arguments about if you would cut off your perfectly health limbs to replace them with cyber ware. As more supplements were released and more gonzo upgrades became available I always asked one question, What doe it make you look like?

So in MgT CSC - what does having subdermal armour look like? For a start you would need to increase the skin thickness for the biokevlar and exotic material grafts. So you will not look the same. Is the skin now yours or is it synthetic? How do you scrub the living skin cells and sublayer of dead tissue? What extra strain in now place on your organs? How do you regulate body temperature?

 

[swordtart]

As it is less effective than conventional armour I don't see it as a problem that needs solving. If an armour restriction means it is all you can have (presuming wasn't detected at customs) even 5 points isn't that much against Traveller weapons for the level of financial investment (particularly when the effect of the to hit roll adds to damage). Even without a dramatic effect a humble dagger is going to overcome the best subdermal armour over half the time.

If you are stacking with other armour then generally the other armour is going to be providing the vast majority of protection.

Some cyberpunk systems introduced a sort of sanity rule with the more cyberwear the less human you were. Over chroming was a sign of psychosis (a bit like some people feel about the more extreme body modification today). That is about the only balance I would consider introducing, but in my experience Travellers need all the help they can get in combat.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Just equip a personal energy screen.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

TL12 +4 Cloth Armor that goes undeer anything has been removed from the CSC.

Weren't those renamed "Cloth Inserts"?

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Just equip a personal energy screen.

Implant an personal energy screen...

 

[hopsnbaer]

Weren't those renamed "Cloth Inserts"?

Not unless it is in another book somewhere, or kept by a GM who likes them. While the Diplo vest says it can be worn under regular clothing, the rules say (Page 12), that only one type of armor can be worn unless otherwise stated. Armor like the Trench Coat specifically mentions it can be worn over other armor.

Of course, your GM experience may vary.

 

[hopsnbaer]

A couple more sentences and clarification on the different armors probably couldn't hurt in the upcoming CSC Update.

Although Mongoose does seem to allow a lot to be left to GM discretion, I am also not a huge proponent of being a rules lawyer in Mongoose.

 

[J. L. Brown]

My impulse would be to point out that top-of-the-line armor at any given TL is top-of-the-line. It is the absolute best protection which can be managed at that TL without crippling downsides -- ie, subdermal doesn't always stack.

That sweet TL-14 +5 Subdermal armor does NOT improve your TL-14 Improved Artillery Battle Dress; the Battle Dress is already doing that sort of stuff to give you the listed protection. There might be room for allowing subdermal to improve protection from armor which is not already 'maximum protection at a given TL', but I would not allow going above the TL max.

 

[rinku]

Further thought... first aid when there's no specific first aid gear available (admittedly rare... but let's go with stranded in the wilderness and the medic and all the medical equipment aren't there) What TL should it count as? TL0? That's going to be harsh on implants.

But on the other hand, I can totally see it. Without access to surgical equipment or antibiotics, a cut that exposes metal or plastic is going to be tricky. A broken bone may be hard to set if bionics are in the way. A bullet that needs to be extracted through subdermal armour would be a nightmare.