Stilton at Dawn- Centauri/Narn Batrep

Did this late last week, didn't have time to post it before the weekend (utter madness, incidentally- rowing is a lot easier than walking up a muddy foreshore, the tide was out);
Andy came round, and we both decided to twink out to a high degree, to put the brokenness of these fleets to the test; we rolled the scenario randomly, he subtracting and me adding, it came out as War level anyway, 5 point Assassination. Asteroid fields on both flanks, the centre of the board was clear- about as counterproductive for him as the terrain could get, really.
We used what I could remember of the Armageddon points split rules;
he, playing the Narn, ended up with one Bin'Tak, two G'Quan, one T'Loth and two Dag'Kar, and burnt two War points on Skirmish ships at six each, ending up with two Sho'Kar, two Thentus, and eight Ka'Tan.
Eighteen Frazi flights accompanied this; area clearance by E-mine followed by mass fighter strike made a major element of his battle plan- I think. We would have used the new fighter sequence, if any of them had got that far.
My Centauri fleet was, under the circumstances, utterly predictable. I spent two points on Battle level, two on Raid, and split one between Skirmish and Patrol. And yes, I munchkinned.
Three Tertius- Ruthless, Relentless and Remorseless, one Balvarix, Indefatigable, two Sulust Sirdar and Scythian, four Prefect, Polaris, Protector, Punisher and Profligate, four Darkner, Gladius, Falchion, Spatha and Dalcassian, four Corvan, CAT, PET, MRI and ECG.
I had actually hoped to do worse. Just how well this lot worked makes it embarrassingly obvious that it is, in fact, utter cheese.
The game lasted three turns. First turn, a particular problem became obvious- the Narn skirmish swarm has real problems operating as part of a fleet with bigger ships. I initiative sinked as well as I could, but was unable to resist reacting just a bit, mainly hazarding Corvan, but pushing a couple of Prefects forward which he was able to target.
The Ka'Tan simply move too fast for the Bin'Tak and G'Quan to support; if they come forward looking for targets, which they did, I can pick my range and be just outside his guns and just inside mine. Normally the enemy does their best to break a sequence like that, but wth boresights, he couldn't; he had to move up ships to support those he had already hazarded, whch meant I got a run of predictable moves out of him. Only two of the Ka'Tan survived the first fire phase.
An additional benefit; the Narn should do well with fighters. So many of their ships carry one flight, they can begin to roll a very healthy attack swarm forward from the word go. He had fourteen of eighteen flights in the air at the beginning of round 1, grouped into attack squadrons and moving by the fire phase. This is where I nailed him. The fighters only move as fast as the skirmishers; so his attack groups were passing through his line. There wasn't enough room for them to pass clear- one or two good explosions can wipe out a fighter force in that situation. They did.
Once he had picked his jaw off the floor, round 2. Again closing to contact. He had the Bin'Tak anchoring the right of his line, the G'Quan centre and left; I was packed pretty close together too, and E- mine barrages were doing damage to my lighter ships. I was swinging in and right, hoping to take the G'Quan on the bounce and move in on the flank of the Bin'Tak. The Narn simply couldn't move fast enough to cross me up; the most they could do was edge closer to each other. Much laserfire later, both G'Quan and one of the Dag'Kar were down.
Round 3 completed the massacre. Relentless had scored a 4-6 crit on the Narn flagship at the end of round 2, Ruthless moved in and claimed the kill. For reasons of length, posting now; analysis later.
 
The final score; Narn fleet completely destroyed, blasted down to the last spot.
Centauri- a grand total of 107/105 taken, two actual losses- one Corvan to mass E-mine fire, one Darkner to the Bin'Tak's boresight. One Corvan crippled and skeletoned, one about half damage, two Darkner and both Salust in the same state. Damage to the Tertius and Prefect was insignificant, the Indefatigable spent the entire battle as a spectator- command bonus was invaluable, combat value none. I would have been better off with a single Octurion instead of it and one of the Tertius.
The Narn fleet has difficulty operating as a fleet. The big ships are too slow; their escorts too easily outrun them.
They actually had more heavy laser dice on the table than the Centauri, but they didn't support each other effectively. I got to fight two separate battles, one against the skirmishers and one against everything else. With any fleet, that's more than half a victory handed to the opposition there and then.
The Centauri fleet I had move at a similar pace, with similar gun ranges and types. Individually, I can't avoid admitting that they are very good. Together, it's damnably hard to find a place to insert the knife- their strengths reinforce each other. Flank that Prefect? Right, my Tertius goes APtE and catches you in all it's forward guns. And the lasers are rerolling because of that Corvan over there.
Andy made mistakes; so did I. He paid much more heavily for his than I did, because my ships could cover each other, his couldn't. With a lot of my heavies, I wan't CAFing, because I wasn't sure what would still be there when the time came for them to shoot, so they weren't tied to any one target.
The Centauri fleet, overall, is in theory balanced. It has good ships and bad ships, strong ones and weak ones- overall, it's fair. And I picked out what I thought were the best, and my decision was richly justified. A fleet with a mix of strong and weak is absolutely not balanced. A fleet with balanced ships is balanced.
The Salusts took a lot of damage. Going down from hull 6 to hull 5 is a real equaliser. Dropping from main gun range 25 to 20 I don't like. I think it makes the tactical problem of dealing with them too straightforward. You don't have to sabre dance, you just have to pile on.
For their level and their gun power, Prefects are too hard to kill. They can be outmanoeuvred, but not when they're supporting each other properly.
As for the Tertius, I love them to bits and I don't want to give them up for any reason whatsoever, but I'd happily take two to one odds against anybody except the Minbari.
 
When I played last I found my Prefect got totalled very easily. It was fired on by a battle-level ship, granted, but the first weapon damn-near crippled it and took 1AD off all its weapons. Once the other two weapons on the Xaak were done shooting the Prefect wasn't in my shape to affect the outcome of the game.

Further games with the Centauri's "broken" ships will be carried out later in the week hopefully.
 
Captain David the Denied said:
Further games with the Centauri's "broken" ships will be carried out later in the week hopefully.

Broken?

You were shouting they were Nerfed the other week :?
 
'Six Timbers' Reaverman said:
Broken?

You were shouting they were Nerfed the other week :?

I complained about the berfing of the Sulust and Dargan in the tournament pack. I can live without the Prefect and Tertius, in fact I've only used these ships once. I just don't see a valid argument for nerfing the Sulust and Dargan. They're fine as they are in my opinion.
 
Captain David the Denied said:
'Six Timbers' Reaverman said:
Broken?

You were shouting they were Nerfed the other week :?

I complained about the berfing of the Sulust and Dargan in the tournament pack. I can live without the Prefect and Tertius, in fact I've only used these ships once. I just don't see a valid argument for nerfing the Sulust and Dargan. They're fine as they are in my opinion.

berfing? what's that!? :p

The Dargan didn't really get nerfed, it got extra damage as well to make it better!
 
SNJ,

who was the agressor. Narn or Centauri?

If the Narn was the Agressor, he could have had 1/2 his fleet in JP. So he could have JP'd the Narn skirmish ships on the Centuari flank
 
LDD, just out of interest, what colour are the clouds on your planet? Here on earth they're generally only pink in the early mornings!

The Prefect is one of the best ships in the game. Hull 6, 35 damage and a 3AD Super AP/DD/Beam, plus great secondary weapons for a Raid ship. No real drawbacks other than 1/45 turn and no fighters (big deal). What other Raid ship has all of these?
 
erm, can we have this post removed? it shows Centauri vastly superior to narn, and thats not alowed as centauri ships all need to be improved.
 
Captain David the Denied said:
'Six Timbers' Reaverman said:
Broken?

You were shouting they were Nerfed the other week :?

I complained about the berfing of the Sulust and Dargan in the tournament pack. I can live without the Prefect and Tertius, in fact I've only used these ships once. I just don't see a valid argument for nerfing the Sulust and Dargan. They're fine as they are in my opinion.
The only Centauri ship I really think needs rethinking (downwards) is the Prefect. The Tertius and Sulust would be nice but not essential (much as has been claimed by others or by yourself that they're not the biggest issues with people). The Dargan is actually a nice ship with nice tactical choices.

As has also been mentioned in this thread, the problem with the Centauri is the mix of better and worse ships, not that they have massive overall problems. The flipside of the good ships is that there are ships like the Kutai, Haven, Secundus and Demos are all choices that are very rarely taken when their battlefield roles would be very useful and characterful if only the stats were good enough to warrant taking.
 
emperorpenguin said:
Dread Pirate Burger said:
No real drawbacks other than 1/45 turn and no fighters (big deal). What other Raid ship has all of these?

no rear weaponry, you forgot that

Thats why you put them in Fleets. There are quite a few ships from other races with no rear weapons, and you dont hear those players moaning.
 
Problem with the centauri is not that any one ships screams "broken" its that they seem to have ships at every PL that are a bit better than average. It ends up making a fleet that is very very strong.

The biggest problem with trying to balance good choices in a fleet list with bad choices is there are no rules to force people to take the poor choices.

(Also I think mongoose playtests with alot more terrain than seems typical, so they're under valuing the long range guns.)
 
'Six Timbers' Reaverman said:
emperorpenguin said:
Dread Pirate Burger said:
No real drawbacks other than 1/45 turn and no fighters (big deal). What other Raid ship has all of these?

no rear weaponry, you forgot that

Thats why you put them in Fleets. There are quite a few ships from other races with no rear weapons, and you dont hear those players moaning.

Still a weakness though, if it had all round fire it'd be better, that makes it a weakness! Since you were listing drawbacks I felt I'd mention one you clearly forgot. :wink:
 
Geekybiker said:
Problem with the centauri is not that any one ships screams "broken" its that they seem to have ships at every PL that are a bit better than average. It ends up making a fleet that is very very strong.

The biggest problem with trying to balance good choices in a fleet list with bad choices is there are no rules to force people to take the poor choices. .)

the Centauri are very similar to 3rd ed Eldar in 40K. Some things are very poor (Demos, Kutai/Dire Avengers, Fire Prisms) so they get ignored because the competition is far better (Sulust, Corvan/Wraithlord)
 
Back
Top