Starships with Aquafitting

Solomani666 said:
None of the reactors you mentioned actually work
Sorry, but this is nonsensical. Our government is currently spending quite
a lot of money to finance the next generation of experimental fusion reac-
tors of this type because they do work.

Oh, and the scientists and engineers from all around the world who desig-
ned and will build the ITER reactor with its toroidal chamber are surely al-
so misguided:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER
 
I'm a bit confused here, I thought that no-one had, as yet, solved the cold fusion problem (perhaps it is a scientific dead end, perhaps not), in a way that generates a lot more power than you put in (which is surely the point).

If it has been solved, as one of the posters seems to think, why is energy still so expensive, and why have the inventors, after being garlanded with awards, not become household names?

Egil
 
Solomani666 said:
You are entirely incorrect, and probably do not even know which research project I was referring to.

Please disengage ego from intelect.

.


Yes, I do. Nothing sustained & past the break even point. I think, due to your EDU level, you do't know what sustained means for a fusion reactor project.
 
As for Bussard's "Polywell", the statement from the current leader of the
project is very clear:
In December 2008, following many months of review by the expert
review panel of the submission of the final WB-7 results, Dr Richard
Nebel commented that "There's nothing in there [the research] that
suggests this will not work," but that "That's a very different state-
ment from saying that it will work."
 
Solomani666 said:
DFW said:
Solomani666 said:
And before you say "No", workable fusion has been invented and tested. It was a project funded by the US Navy and lead by Dr. Bussard. (Yes, that Bussard.)

Actually not. Workable means it is sustained and outputs more energy than is input.

You are entirely incorrect, and probably do not even know which research project I was referring to.

Please disengage ego from intelect.
.

Your tone is starting again. Just incase you didn't realize it.

Please desist, or it will be reported.

Dave Chase
 
rust said:
Solomani666 said:
None of the reactors you mentioned actually work
Sorry, but this is nonsensical. Our government is currently spending quite
a lot of money to finance the next generation of experimental fusion reac-
tors of this type because they do work.

Oh, and the scientists and engineers from all around the world who desig-
ned and will build the ITER reactor with its toroidal chamber are surely al-
so misguided:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

Their are politics and money involved. None of it makes sense.


.
 
Solomani666 said:
Their are politics and money involved. None of it makes sense.
If I have the choice between your opinion and the opinions of dozens of
nuclear physicists ... :wink:

Otherwise, this has gone quite off topic, so I would prefer if we could get
a bit closer to aquafitted starships again. 8)
 
Yes, tordial based (Tokamak) fusion reactor designs, like those I based my concept of Traveller PPs on decades ago, are still a viable research area and anticipated candidates for the realization of actual fusion based power plants. Likewise, there are plenty of other designs that remain contenders - such as the Spheromak (another cool name - LLNL or LANL, IIRC?) and Dr. Bussard's designs* (based on much older designs he didn't invent just attempted refinements). With popular media, especially regards the WWW, there is a lot of misleading (and downright bogus) information on technical subjects of this nature - then throw in the egos and grandstanding present when it comes to the particular topic of energy production and good info sources can be hard to come by.

Sadly, I've been a fan following the research over the years, but this is one area of (power industry) research I've had no professional exposure to (collaborated with two who did contract work for NIF, but our conversations centered around optics and lasers).

I do look forward to the days of fusion based power plants - but realistically, better power distribution could eliminate much of the need. (Nuclear fusion reactors don't promise 'clean' energy - just cleaner than fission - and then not so much if the fuel comes from fission reactors as many research designs have required.) If we could more efficiently (and politically) distribute and use the largely wasted output capacity of the world's hydro-electric plants much of today's world demand could be met.

Back on topic...

The crux of my original post was simply that the Traveller power plant (and drives) could, overall, be comparable or even less dense than water if its largest volume is simply a vacuum chamber (and work space is accounted for). IMTU, most of my drives are 'empty space' or are of very low density, with the exception of heavy metal allows (with Tantalum and Molydenum IIRC). It's an option - nothing more.

IMTU, filling fuel tanks worked for ballast - but then I wasn't worried about maneuvering on water or submerging. Adding hydrojets would definitely make this more of a concern. ;)

So rust - I recall you posting about water based personal weapons - have you given any thought to ship based ones? Anti-personnel/fauna and anti-ship? :D

*Ironically, last summer, I remarked to my dad that his latest vacuum chamber (used mostly for testing space-bound instruments for NASA and ESA projects), with its large, hand wound, squarish shielding coils (particular to that chamber), looked suspiciously like Bussard's last described plan for a Polywell reactor 8)
 
DFW said:
I would ditch the sonar & use densiometer as it works better and is dual use

I don't know if Mongoose Traveller is different, but in MegaTraveller, Sonar was dirt cheap (less than 1 vacc suit, IIRC) and Densinometers were like buying a Power Plant (bulky, expensive and much better at high TLs).

I havn't uses either in MgT yet, so I don't know if the balance has changed.
 
BP said:
The crux of my original post was simply that the Traveller power plant (and drives) could, overall, be comparable or even less dense than water if its largest volume is simply a vacuum chamber (and work space is accounted for). IMTU, most of my drives are 'empty space' or are of very low density, with the exception of heavy metal allows (with Tantalum and Molydenum IIRC). It's an option - nothing more.

What of the need for shielding high energy radiation/particles?
I was under the impression that most fusion reactions produced too much radiation for a shirtsleeve environment and getting only 'good' reactions was very hard.

(Just asking if lead shielding would increase the weight even if it is mostly empty space.)
 
Sure - as I mentioned - fusion energy doesn't necessarily mean 'clean' with respect to radioactivity...

The metals I listed are also much denser than lead - but even so, if they only make up 5% of the volume - between work and chamber spaces, the net could be close to or even less than the density of normal fresh water (salt waters being denser, but that varies substantially). Also lead is just a relatively cheap and effective shielding - there are others (like barium for x-rays) that are less than half the density. Lithium, used in some designs for shielding and tritium development, is around half the density of water, IIRC (I know its very light and floats).

A fairly clear design will obviate much of the need for shielding, but I still like to envision some IMTU. Note, IMTU, the typical fusion PP is not based on cold fusion... which would be a whole different fictional ball of wax! YMMV.

More importantly - this is a game and one I most certainly do not approach as 'hard sci-fi' myself. Radiation shielding, or any other material science aspect for that matter, are not based on standard metals and alloys IMTU - but are often futuristic fiction - like Star Trek's 'transparent aluminum'*. I like to add all manner of fictional nanofiber, buckyball molecular sieves, starlite type materials, etc. - though my imagination often rarely exceeds what has been created in the realworld under limited circumstances.

(* - which, IIRC, has actually been created, albeit in minute quantities/time spans for UV - though there is a ceramic made with Al that is transparent (so not the crystalline structure of the metal alone) ;) )
 
DFW said:
I would ditch the sonar & use densiometer as it works better and is dual use
As atpollard mentioned, densitometers are expensive, and they also ap-
pear in Mongoose Traveller at TL 11, which is above my setting's techno-
logy level.

Moreover, while more primitive versions of gravimetric sensors would be
possible (modern submarines already have them), sonar has the advan-
tage that it can also be used as an underwater communicator - an active
and passive sensor plus communicator all in one package.
 
BP said:
So rust - I recall you posting about water based personal weapons - have you given any thought to ship based ones? Anti-personnel/fauna and anti-ship? :D
Yep, they are basically the same as the personal weapons: Sonic weapons
and torpedoes. The defensive "weapon" is the ability to electrify the hull
of the ship to keep wildlife away (or to attract it ...).
I also considered a bluegreen laser, but it turned out to be better used as
a kind of LIDAR than as a weapon, the power requirement and the range
were too bad for a weapon.

As the density / weight of the drive, I see your point, but I do not want to
change the design system now, so my ship's engines will remain heavy
for the foreseeable future. :D
 
rust said:
DFW said:
I would ditch the sonar & use densiometer as it works better and is dual use
As atpollard mentioned, densitometers are expensive, and they also ap-
pear in Mongoose Traveller at TL 11, which is above my setting's techno-
logy level.

That would be a problem then.
 
rust said:
...considered a bluegreen laser, but it turned out to be better used as a kind of LIDAR ...
Yeah - I would use them for high resolution scanning, not as weapons.

Have you considered a water based (munition) weapon - high pressure water (typically mixed with abrasives) are used in water jet cutters today. They work under water and real world ones go upto 100,000+ psi, IIRC - so I suspect you can get some useful range out of them. Also, believe a water jet can be enhanced with ultrasonics - which gives a role-playable tuning option depending on material - like when the 'weapon' is being used to carve out corral or rock vs cutting thru metal or tissue.

rust said:
...As the density / weight of the drive, I see your point, but I do not want to
change the design system now, so my ship's engines will remain heavy
for the foreseeable future. :D
Ah - wasn't really a suggestion for your setting - the original reply was just about how the density assumption atpollard proposed might not apply IMTU. My TU is of a much higher baseline TL, so material science assumptions mean heavy machinery is typically less dense than at lower TL (though, as in RL, not necessarily more reliable :twisted: )
 
BP said:
Have you considered a water based (munition) weapon ...
I have thought about it, but currently I use water jets only as tools, main-
ly because sonic weapons and torpedoes with different warheads (from a
tangler net to explosives) still seem sufficient for all kinds of tasks.
 
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