Starship prices

[simonh]

Is it just me or do starships seem a bit pricey in Traveller? MCr 22 for a mining ship means you've got to find a lot of very expensive ore to make it worthwhile.

It seems to me you could assume advanceds in automated manufacturing that reduced the oevrall cost of starships by a factor of 10 without overly straining the bounds of realism too much. This would also handily solve the problem of how come the party don't just sell their ship and retire.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Xoph]

I have a player who is very worried about his issue. Ships are rather pricey, but I havent decided what if anything to do about it. What is everyone else doing with ship pricing?

 

[d(sqrt(-1))]

Rather like cars, oil tankers, airliners etc, most new ships are bought by corporations who have the means and the tax incentives to do so. PCs usually buy second-hand older ships (I would figure on an average of 5% compound depreciation per year perhaps).

Mark

 

[far-trader]

Rather like cars, oil tankers, airliners etc, most new ships are bought by corporations who have the means and the tax incentives to do so. PCs usually buy second-hand older ships (I would figure on an average of 5% compound depreciation per year perhaps).

Mark

Historically/Canonically space craft in Traveller have useful ages measured in decades (typically 10+) rather than years and the typical depreciation is only 10% (or less if well cared for) per decade, and 10% right out of the shipyard.

So I have long argued/agreed that individuals don't (usually) get new ships but instead 2nd mortgaged* 40 year old ships (with "character") at 50% of the new price. Makes payments more doable, even with the routine required overhauls and repairs due to age and missed maintenance.

* same terms as 1st mortgage

 

[tneva82]

This would also handily solve the problem of how come the party don't just sell their ship and retire.

Well once they have managed to payback their loan for ship(pretty much required to get it in a first place...) that's not that unrealistic idea anyway.

As it is good traders can earn lot more by using ship for trading until loan has been paid off and then sell it and retire. They will be whole lot richer that way than by selling off ship rightaway if rules are anything to go by(our group of characters started with 500kCr, got it into 3.5Mcr in first 2 jumps and now looking how things are going are looking at something like 8M+ after they manage to sell their current cargo! And now they have some real cash for speculative trade if they get chance to buy say 6 tons of radioactive materials which would be real jackpot...This way keep up and by the time they have traded for a year they have already paid mortage and are looking for bigger ship!).

 

[simonh]

As it is good traders can earn lot more by using ship for trading until loan has been paid off and then sell it and retire. They will be whole lot richer that way than by selling off ship rightaway if rules are anything to go by(our group of characters started with 500kCr, got it into 3.5Mcr in first 2 jumps and now looking how things are going are looking at something like 8M+ after they manage to sell their current cargo!

This is my point, you could divide those figures by 10 as well and it would still be a large chunk of change. The whole starship economics system is inflated.

Simon Hibbs

 

[tneva82]

This is my point, you could divide those figures by 10 as well and it would still be a large chunk of change. The whole starship economics system is inflated.

Hum. If starship prices were divided by 10 then group would pretty much be on their own ALREADY...I don't think it's feasible any trader group would be able to fund their ship in about month...How long before say current cargo ships starts to make profit? I think it takes more than a month but not sure.

 

[simonh]

Hum. If starship prices were divided by 10 then group would pretty much be on their own ALREADY...I don't think it's feasible any trader group would be able to fund their ship in about month...How long before say current cargo ships starts to make profit? I think it takes more than a month but not sure.

By 'starship economics system' I include the trading system. Clearly there would need to be some other adjustments as well to make this work.

I just came across an analysis of the costs of manufacturing for commercial and military shipping: http://tinyurl.com/5ubsjv

So a container ship costs $3,000 per LSW ton. If 1 dton = 5 LSW tons (roughly), then a 100dton vessel should cost around $1.5million. This implies that Traveller starships cost around 15 to 20 times as much as modern commercial shipping per LSW ton (assuming Cr1 = $1).

Of course starships should probably cost more per dton than seagoing shipping. On the other hand surely advanced manufacturing technology should also reduce costs?

On the other hand maybe I should be comparing to aviation manufacturing costs.

Ultimately though I'm not overly concerned about 'relaism' as such, but I'm hoping that dividing the starship exconomics system by 10 doesn't introduce any outrageous believability issues, but I think it does sole some believability issues in the current scale. I like the idea of a universe/game environment where starships are relatively much cheaper than Traveller makes them.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

(assuming Cr1 = $1)

I seem to recall that $ 1 = Cr 3.

Not sure I didn't dream that, though :?

 

[simonh]

Another interesting point from the link, military shipping manufacturing costs are about 10x to 20x the cost of the most expensive luxury liners, which themselves cost about 3x as much as most other commercial shipping. Those are huge differences that Traveller doesn't begin to emulate. In Traveller, military vessels are realy only incrementaly more pricey that commercial vessels.

For comparrison, a top of the line luxury superyacht comes in at about $300million. No idea what the tonnage is, but she's about 115m long.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelorus_(yacht)

Simon Hibbs

 

[Captain Brann]

That would tend to impliy that weapons, electronics and amour are under priced.

Due to the very expensive engines needed for any large ship to move more than 1 parsec, Traveller ships will b more expensive than modern cargo ships which only have to go short distances to another port at a standard speed. Military ships cost more for amongst other things more speed and survivability, which cargo ships do not need to worry about.

 

[tneva82]

So a container ship costs $3,000 per LSW ton. If 1 dton = 5 LSW tons (roughly), then a 100dton vessel should cost around $1.5million. This implies that Traveller starships cost around 15 to 20 times as much as modern commercial shipping per LSW ton (assuming Cr1 = $1).

And why would 1credit be 1$? It's over 1000 years ahead! Apart from currency changes you have to remember inflation that changes money value already.

But if it troubles so much then divide EVERYTHING by 10. Starting from starship prices to retirement income to what money you generate when leaving career to equipment prices to base costs for items etc etc etc.

Myself I don't see need for that. Relative value would be same and that has no need for change. No need for traders to be able to finance starship in less than a month. If for nothing else would make whole mortage thing pointless(why bother with 40 year payback scheme when you can get money collected in a month?).

 

[Supergamera]

The system would seem to work better if ship prices were reduced considerably, while maintenance costs per jump went up. The results of this:

- Even with ~3000 years of advances in manufacturing, starship ownership is still uncommon - there are many new and old ships out there that you might be able to purchase, but they take a lot of effort to keep flying

- Mortgages are replaced by high maintenance costs as the primary cost for a merchant ship - no need to make the bank payment on time, but skipping on maintenance will cost you very quickly. "Can we keep her flying?" always seemed to be a bit more entertaining than "how many years left on our mortgage?"

- Without monthly payments, and with maintenance accumulating with use, crews can go and have off-ship adventures without the mortgage looming overhead - no more "those Ancient ruins could be interesting, but we just can't take the time of our shipping schedule"

- Ships themselves become less valuable than their cargo (and crew, as they have the skills to maintain ships). This makes piracy more viable, as the pirates have only a small amount of equity in their ship, but need to make regular raids to afford their upkeep. Pirates could also press skilled crewmen they capture into service.

 

[simonh]

And why would 1credit be 1$? It's over 1000 years ahead! Apart from currency changes you have to remember inflation that changes money value already.

Well, 1977 Dollars perhaps.

But if it troubles so much then divide EVERYTHING by 10. Starting from starship prices to retirement income to what money you generate when leaving career to equipment prices to base costs for items etc etc etc.

Wow, why didn't I think of that? What a great idea! er....

Simon Hibbs

 

[Golan2072]

Well, 1977 Dollars perhaps.

Yes, 1977 dollars it is, and 1977 as inspiration for the prices of most gear (especially electronics - most of it is far cheaper today).

 

[simonh]

The system would seem to work better if ship prices were reduced considerably, while maintenance costs per jump went up. The results of this:

Wow, lots of very good stuff. This is definitely the way to go, IMHO.

Simon Hibbs

 

[far-trader]

...As it is good traders can earn lot more by using ship for trading until loan has been paid off and then sell it and retire. They will be whole lot richer that way than by selling off ship rightaway if rules are anything to go by(our group of characters started with 500kCr, got it into 3.5Mcr in first 2 jumps and now looking how things are going are looking at something like 8M+ after they manage to sell their current cargo! And now they have some real cash for speculative trade if they get chance to buy say 6 tons of radioactive materials which would be real jackpot...This way keep up and by the time they have traded for a year they have already paid mortage and are looking for bigger ship!).

Can you elaborate a little more? I agree trade can earn a lot, it takes money to make money, but something looks nerfed here. Of course I don't have MGT so maybe it has made some changes.

First, starting funds of MCr0.5 for the group? A group of 4 would be incredibly lucky to have that total from mustering out. But I guess it's possible.

Next, how lucky did they roll to find two speculative cargoes valuable enough to turn that into MCr3.5 in two successive trips?

I have seen these claims of get rich quick made before and it always seems some rule point is being forgotten or discarded as (wrongly) presumed unnecessary.

The problem is (false) claims are then made that the trade system is easy to make big credits with and so it's broken when in fact the rules were broken by an incorrect interpretation/application. Or perhaps MGT did change things such that they are now that easy, like CT did with LBB7.

The rules were originally set up (CT LBB2) such that it would be a small profit and any damage (say from, oh look! Pirates!!) would require some side (ad)venture to repair since the regular trade wouldn't cover it. And the little profits made were generally put into arming the ship (and players) so that the next side (ad)venture might be a little more (survi)valuable

But hey, if the game is fun trading up to ever bigger ships every year for your group, more power to you Enjoy!

 

[tneva82]

First, starting funds of MCr0.5 for the group? A group of 4 would be incredibly lucky to have that total from mustering out. But I guess it's possible.

Group of 6 actually.

Next, how lucky did they roll to find two speculative cargoes valuable enough to turn that into MCr3.5 in two successive trips?

Well d6+whatever planet has automaticly to offer. That's lots of choises. Actually more than they need to fill up cargo for whole cash(tonnage isn't that important. It's better to have 1 ton worth 100kCr than 10 tons worth 10kCr. Remaining 9 tons can be tried to fill with non-speculative cargo, though there they have been less succesfull than with speculative cargo, or by the least mail box).

Albeit first trip was handy as they got their hands on robots but after that they just need to pick up most profitable items.

And now they rolled up radioactives. 3 tons of them and with industrial planet(they are going to get +6 total modifiers for the sale price roll...) nearby I suspect some serious profit there. Nevermind 30 tons of biochemicals, 40 tons of luxury consumables, 4 tons of precious metals, 10 tons of basic raw materials and some illegal items(of course these DO provide them with "few" risks. I might use these to cut their profit a bit ;-)

But hey, if the game is fun trading up to ever bigger ships every year for your group, more power to you Enjoy!

Hey I'm not the one who's claiming starships are too expensive...

 

[far-trader]

Thanks for the reply tneva82.

Group of 6 does make the starting funds better, of course I'm even more envious you have such a large group playing

So it looks like MGT is more like LBB7 (which was imo badly broken in concept). And certainly under that kind of rules making money hand over fist won't be terribly hard at all. In fact the players might as well (if they haven't already) stopped bothering with all the hassle of passengers and just concentrate on speculative cargo.

Wait? They have a mail contract too? :shock: Lucky dogs. (and more "broken" rules?) A mail contract should be a major impediment to speculative trade. The mail has to should go through on time and on route. No wandering through a system off route to make the best profit on the load of speculative cargo in the hold.

I don't think any profit cut in the way of bribes for fines for the contraband is going to make a dent in the bottom line. If anything they'll just say to heck with any questionable stuff in the future and be Trillionaires in no time.

Hey I'm not the one who's claiming starships are too expensive...

Nope, and no one engaged in trade under those rules should be. If anything they are too cheap by a factor of 10 or more then

 

[tneva82]

Wait? They have a mail contract too? :shock: Lucky dogs. (and more "broken" rules?) A mail contract should be a major impediment to speculative trade. The mail has to should go through on time and on route. No wandering through a system off route to make the best profit on the load of speculative cargo in the hold.

Well can't you do speculative trade first and THEN check wether there's mail around? By then you are leaving system anyway(and getting mail shouldn't be too hard with armed ship and ex-admiral in group(hey it's not players fault if he keeps rolling double 6 and HAS to continue on career...)). Though that was just some idea. So far they have managed to fill cargo hold anyway(though now it got close. Those radioactives aren't cheap even when you have excelent broker among group...) and speculative trade>mail generally. I'm not sure have they yet transfered any mail yet. Nor much in form of passengers either but that's due to availability of passengers so far.

Then again I'm not complaining. This way it won't take decades in real world time before they can invest in bigger ship(needed if they wish to become say mercenaries). Might happen in year or two even.