SST:Evo&marauder ape

[tneva82]

Just idle wondering. What will change in SST:Evo to make M8 ape(especially without flamers) worthwhile with 1 reaction only rule? As it is it's firepower isn't that impressive, in CC it's not king and only reason it worked for me was that it was so tough it took lots of effort from enemy to take it out=lots of reactions.

Take out reactions and it seems just pricey undergunned tough model. Nice roadblock except enemy might just walk past it using your shooting actions to speed their way forward with reactions...

Now I'm sure Mongoose has given thought over this and have somehow secured it's use but how? That's what I wonder :lol: Few ideas:

1) upgun it a bit. Requlary during the jump it fires morita ape specials and deringer. 4xd6 and 2xd6+1 is not that impressive when majority of targets you shoot have target 5+ and save 4+ minimum...Morita ape specials atleast could do bit of boost.
2) wild idea: Give marauders special ability to react more than once. Should be easy enough to make note "may react 2/3/whatever time per turn". This could be given to units that generally had infinite weapons on old rules.
3) something else? What?

Just some random musings.

 

[Alexb83]

There are a few units that may have gotten generally shafted with the shift away from the old action/reaction dynamic, as well as the hit/kill being eliminated.

At the open day last year, Pathfinders had been rendered pretty much pointless - they were just more expensive CAPs (no dodge, no enhanced reaction range etc. etc.) with an identical statline, with only the dubious honour of being able to take a downgraded shredder (no more reavers!).

Similarly - now that there's no ammo rules and the whole pack/infinite weapon thing has been removed, and artillery fire has been eliminated from the game - it's going to be interesting to see how Marauders' cards are worded.

 

[tneva82]

There are a few units that may have gotten generally shafted with the shift away from the old action/reaction dynamic, as well as the hit/kill being eliminated.

What you mean with hit/kill? The kill in BF:Evo is one kill but AFAIK Matt said Tankers etc can still survive multiple kill results in SST. And certainly there are hits as in hit/X in BF:Evo as well.

At the open day last year, Pathfinders had been rendered pretty much pointless - they were just more expensive CAPs (no dodge, no enhanced reaction range etc. etc.) with an identical statline, with only the dubious honour of being able to take a downgraded shredder (no more reavers!).

Hopefully they improve that as well...

Similarly - now that there's no ammo rules and the whole pack/infinite weapon thing has been removed, and artillery fire has been eliminated from the game - it's going to be interesting to see how Marauders' cards are worded.

Infinite weapon yes. Pack no(if weapon can shoot once per turn and can't react isn't that same as pack weapon, even if more annoyingly worded?). What are you talking about artirelly though? The scatter rules were specifically reworded and now can scatter in more directions than forward/backward. Or did that change as well from last we know?

 

[Galatea]

ARGH! Scattering artillery.
That's crapy dummy rules.

No modern artillery is going anything other than too short or too long - except the spotter has reported big mess.


I already thought about this just one reaction in regard for tankers.
Either the Tankers have to go up in value, because they loose only one reaction - but they shouldn't cause they are still in balance with pack weapons (that also don't have reactions)...
Or the Thorny Tanker has to go down in costs. It's advantage over the other tankers is seriously harmed. It looses the formidable spit to gain just one reaction.
I'd vote for giving it the Killshot-Trait (at least in his Front Arc - look at this mandibles!) while not changing the costs.

p.s. The game you have played was one year ago. Don't you think things have changed since that?

 

[tneva82]

No modern artillery is going anything other than too short or too long - except the spotter has reported big mess.

I wouldn't exactly call plasma bug as modern artirelly for one

p.s. The game you have played was one year ago. Don't you think things have changed since that?

I have played no SST:Evo game. And the SST:Evo game that I know off(open day) was more like half a year ago(SST:Evo was released end of last summer...That's not one year ago ).

 

[Alexb83]

Because there was no longer hit/kill (just the kill score) - there's no such thing as a dodge anymore, or multiple hits (just special rules like for tankers and raiders), and Pathfinders didn't have a rule on their card allowing them to escape death on a 6+.

 

[Aniyn]

I'm really starting to question mongoose making so many changes to the game. SST won big at Origins, why be in such a hurry to get rid of that?

 

[Alexb83]

In some ways I can appreciate that they wanted to simplify the action/reaction scheme, and clarify the cover etc. - but the move to unit cards has really stunted the statlines of the units - hit/kill - the saves, and the weapon stats are all essentially out the window.

Things which made so much sense before, like direct/indirect fire, weapon traits, hits, the armour/dodge save breakdown - are now all replaced by special rules on the cards, and at least from last October many of the units did not seem to have been recosted based on these changes.

It strikes me as a less organic system caused solely by the desire to squeeze everything onto cards.

 

[tneva82]

Because there was no longer hit/kill (just the kill score) - there's no such thing as a dodge anymore, or multiple hits (just special rules like for tankers and raiders), and Pathfinders didn't have a rule on their card allowing them to escape death on a 6+.

Dodge is easy to put into unit stats and the special rule for tankers etc does exactly what multiple hit did so what's the problem?

As for pathfinders maybe they got the rule back...It's been a while after your game yes?

 

[Hiromoon]

You should have seen the arguement the playtest group got into over the multi-hit stuff, Tneva82. We accepted that it wasn't what was intended for BF:Ev, but we're talking the TANKER BUGS for crying out loud...

And the Pathfinders only dodge while in cover.... if you can call it dodge.... kill still kills them though...

 

[tneva82]

You should have seen the arguement the playtest group got into over the multi-hit stuff, Tneva82. We accepted that it wasn't what was intended for BF:Ev, but we're talking the TANKER BUGS for crying out loud...

So what's the difference about being able to ignore first 4 hits(for example) like in BF:Evo and hits/5 in SST? As far as I see they are the same...

 

[Hiromoon]

What we were pushing for was the requirement for three kill hits to be scored to kill it outright, seeing as there's more than a few weapons out there in SST that'd kill it outright

 

[Alexb83]

The dodge in cover seems a bit pointless - basic PF's had a 6+ dodge before cover rules in the old system.

Their increased costs represented a few things: better reaction range. Immunity to reaction in turn 1, better tunneling rules, somewhat better weapons (which they still had to pay for!) and a dodge save on even the basic troops.

Now they have none of these things, or at least they didn't. But yes, Matt did say at the time that they were being re-done. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[tneva82]

What we were pushing for was the requirement for three kill hits to be scored to kill it outright, seeing as there's more than a few weapons out there in SST that'd kill it outright

But didn't Matt state that tankers etc would still survive more than 1 killshot? Actually I'm 100% positive he said that...Did the plan change after the open game day?

 

[Hiromoon]

Actually...

And I have NO idea why it's called Veteran Sgt, but under that rule they have the 6+ dodge save...

And the slightly less annoying named Duck and Cover rule (I'm rechecking the stats) lets them re-roll failed saves in cover.

 

[Hiromoon]

But didn't Matt state that tankers etc would still survive more than 1 killshot? Actually I'm 100% positive he said that...Did the plan change after the open game day?

I'm looking at the most recent stats right now, Tneva82.

or..well..I really need to orgnize this damn folder better. NOW i'm looking at the stats again..(they were under the v5 rule set)...

Tough: The tanker bug will ignore the first five failed Armour rolls. An attack that rolls its Kill score will not automatically destroy it – instead, it will count as two failed Armour rolls. It will ignore all terrain 1” high or less for the purposes of movement.

And under v5, Pathfinders didn't change..
Veteran Sergeant: The troopers of this unit are tough, having seen many campaigns, and are difficult to kill. Whenever one is about to be removed from the table as a casualty, roll a D6. On a 6, he dodges out of the way at the last instant.

Duck and Cover: So long as a model from this unit is in Cover, it may re-roll any failed Armour rolls.

 

[tneva82]

Tough: The tanker bug will ignore the first five failed Armour rolls. An attack that rolls its Kill score will not automatically destroy it – instead, it will count as two failed Armour rolls. It will ignore all terrain 1” high or less for the purposes of movement.

That sounds to me exactly same as hits/6 trait...

It survives 6 non-kill results or 3 kill results. Sounds to me like no change to SST rules on that regard then. What's the problem then? Did you want tanker to be even tougher than originally or what's the problem?

Sorry but I'm now totally confused...Maybe I should go back to bed and sleep some more to clear my head :lol:

 

[Alexb83]

Surely that's just the sergeant's rule, Hiro? The CAP sergeants did have that back in October. Still, the old pathfinder was 4+/5+ for the sarge & Lt., and 4+/6+ for the basic trooper.

The points costs hadn't changed back in October, so the question became - what were you paying for over the top of normal CAPs?

 

[Hiromoon]

No, but there was a big stink over it within the play test group. Two of the remaining guys wanted it (and this includes me) the way you see it now, one had dropped off the face of the earth, the other didn't reply, and the last guy and Matt wanted it the same way the Tanks are in BF:Ev.

Edit: Origionally it was this:
Tough: The tanker bug will ignore the first five failed Armour rolls. An attack that rolls its Kill score will destroy it as normal.

 

[tneva82]

Edit: Origionally it was this:
Tough: The tanker bug will ignore the first five failed Armour rolls. An attack that rolls its Kill score will destroy it as normal.

Aaaah. That clears it up then.

Hrrrrr...Thank god it stayed as it was in SST then. One kill means dead tanker? Scrap all tankers then...

Good thing it was scrapped then.

Thanks for clarifying it.