Space Western - Quick Draw Combat House Rules (Opinions?)

[Solomani666]

The Traveller rules work fine for most combat situations but since I am running a Western campaign, I feel that more detailed Quick Draw rules are in order since probably half the battles will start with two or more men/women squared off and looking at each other eye to eye.

Welcome to the Wild, Wild West Traveller style.



Here is a rough draft of the rules I am considering so far:



New skill: Quickdraw.
The skill can not be taught, but is increased through experience and practice.
Having a gun combat level of of 1+ with a particular weapon automatically gives the character Quickdraw-0 with that weapon.



The Quick Draw:

A Quick Draw is a special attack when two or more combatants are aware of each other and expecting hostilities. A quick draw takes 1 minor action that combines initiative, the drawing/readying of a weapon and a snap attack.

An opposed skill check is made with each side rolling 2d6 and adding the following modifiers:

+1 Character that draws/goes for his gun/knife first. (Only given to 1 character)
-2 Drawn weapon is a thrown knife.
-4 Rifle/SMG etc.
-1 Gyro-stabilized weapon.
+0 Target is in front of the character.
-1 Target is on the non-gun hand side of the character.
-2 Target is on the gun hand side of the character.
-4 Target is behind the character. (hearing, mirror, warning, etc.)
+2 Gun/knife is in hand. Two hands if a rifle or SMG.
+6 Gun/Rifle is in hand and aimed at the other character.
+ Quickdraw skill. (-3 if unskilled or weapon-0)
+ Gun Combat skill. (-3 if unskilled)
+ Dexterity Bonus.


Effect Table

The effect roll for each character is has the following results:
-6 The weapon discharges prematurely. The character does not get his weapon ready/out of the holster. Character looses all remaining actions for the next 2 Mini Rounds.
-2 The character fumbles/sneezes/etc. and does not get his weapon ready/out of the holster.
-1 The character draws his weapon only and makes no Snap Attack.
0 The character draws and shoots making a Snap Attack -2 to hit.
1+ The character draws and shoots making a Snap Attack.
6+ The character draws and shoots making an Aimed Attack but costing only a minor action.


The character with the highest total modified dice roll shoots first provided their effect is 0+.
If the total difference is 0 then they shoot simultaneously.
If the total difference is -1 and the faster character has a knife they shoot/throw simultaneously.

2 second minor action rounds (Mini Rounds) continue from this point on in a round robin fashion with the character having the highest quick draw total moving/shooting first.

Subsequent combatants entering the battle, can either quick draw using the above rules, or expend a minor action (1 Mini Round) drawing/readying their weapon. At which point initiative may need to be re-rolled using normal Traveller rules.



The Snap Attack:

Takes 1 minor action (1 Mini Round).
A character may make multiple snap attacks per round (1 per Mini Round) by using a minor action.

-2 Attack modifier.
-1 Gyro-stabilized weapon.
- Recoil modifiers for each subsequent snap attack or after an aimed attack.
+1 Laser sight.
+ Weapon skill.
+ Dexterity bonus.
+ Normal Traveller range/gun modifiers.

(Note: Scopes, heads up displays and similar fancy attachments and upgrades are not usable during a Snap Attack.



The Aimed Attack:

Takes 2 minor actions or 2 Mini Rounds.
A character making an Aimed Attack can only perform 'free actions' during the next Mini Round.

Use the standard Traveller combat rules for chances to hit.



Mini Round:

A 2 second combat round in which a character must expend a minor or significant action.

A character that performs a significant action during a Mini Round can only perform 'free actions' during the next Mini Round.



Movement:

Using a square grid, characters can either face the square side or the diagonal.
Front, left, right, and rear are each 90 degree arcs.

When a target straddles two faces the advantage goes to the player character or the defender.

Humans can move up to 6 meters or 4 squares per Mini Round and takes one minor action.

Characters may move into any of their forward 3 squares without changing face.

A character may turn 90 degrees and expend 25% of their movement. (1 square)

A single 45 degree turn is considered a free action when standing still or after moving 1 or more squares.





Note:

These rules are intended for close quarter gunfights and duels in cities, buildings and starships.

All normal Traveller combat rules apply except where superseded by the above rules.




Looking forward to your comments.


.

 

[CosmicGamer]

half the battles will start with two or more men/women squared off and looking at each other eye to eye.

I believe more Hollywood than how things historically occurred but no reason your imaginary world can't do things this way (especially in a society that believes in the book of old movie quotes) but will the non locals adhere to this tradition? Will it be just tradition or law governing conflicts?

New skill: Quickdraw.
The skill can not be taught, but is increased through experience and practice.
Having a gun combat level of of 1+ with a particular weapon automatically gives the character Quickdraw-0 with that weapon.

We've got gun skills already for how accurate someone is. There is the dex skill for how quick someone is. I've always assumed that these two together represent a persons "quickdraw" ability.

I can see breaking down wild west gun skills going to the extreme with skills like long range shot, shooting a moving target, shooting on horseback, 2 handgun shot, shooting while drunk...

I'm uncertain what quickdraw means to you because here it is a skill and then it is also a special type of combat action, there is the snap attack action, then there are changes like mini rounds and movement. It appears too complicated to me and more like a rewrite of the combat rules than a rule to accommodate street duels.

If most of the game play is a combat and a combat simulation is what you'd like, I'm sure you could just throw out the Traveller combat rules and incorporate combat rules that suit your needs better. Less tweaking.

Even though I don't completely understand it, I'll try to make comments on your proposal. Perhaps not too helpful and more to get your feedback and hopefully understand better what your trying to do.

A quick draw takes 1 minor action that combines initiative, the drawing/readying of a weapon and a snap attack.

I can see something like a rushed attack action. There are already special grappling rules, so a special set of rules for a duel or standoff makes sense to me.

An opposed skill check is made with each side rolling 2d6 and adding the following modifiers:

Does this just determine who draws first? Does it determine if a shot hits? Does it go towards damage?

+1 Character that draws/goes for his gun/knife first. (Only given to 1 character)

I don't think drawing quickly should give a bonus to hit or damage.

-4 Rifle/SMG etc.

Certainly some weapons will have disadvantages to being quickly readied, aimed, and fired.

+0 Target is in front of the character.
-1 Target is on the non-gun hand side of the character.
-2 Target is on the gun hand side of the character.
-4 Target is behind the character. (hearing, mirror, warning, etc.)

For me, if it isn't a face to face duel/standoff this should be elsewhere. A modification to regular combat rules?

+2 Gun/knife is in hand.
+6 Gun/Rifle is in hand and aimed at the other character.

Can you get +2 and +6 or should it be +4 Gun/Rifle aimed at the other character? Ok if this only determines who hits first but I don't think it should give a bonus to hit or damage.

+ Quickdraw skill. (-3 if unskilled or weapon-0)
+ Gun Combat skill. (-3 if unskilled)

Someone without gun skill and with very high +2 DM dex would have a -4 DM compared to someone with Gun level 0, quickdraw level 0, and just average dex being +0DM. Should a faster person draw slower?


My proposal
1) No quickdraw skill needed. Dex and gun skill DMs already represent this.
2) A duel/standoff uses an alternate opposed check system to determine who fires first. This system has a DMs you've indicated above for the difficulty to quickly draw certain types of weapons and weapon readiness. This only indicates who shoots first. See the books hasten rule.
3) Hitting and damage can probably occur as normal.

 

[DFW]

I believe more Hollywood than how things historically occurred but no reason your imaginary world can't do things this way (especially in a society that believes in the book of old movie quotes) but will the non locals adhere to this tradition? Will it be just tradition or law governing conflicts?

Agreed. This didn't really happen in the Old West. Locals will get gunned down as off world combat vets don't follow rules that are detrimental to their health.

That being said, you'll want to give bonus for revolvers over semi-autos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iK2ndUyKE8

 

[AKAmra]

The only thing that stood out to me in the rules that I would change is the +6 Gun/Rifle is in hand and aimed at the other character. I would reduce it to +3 or so. The action/re-action delay really mitigates the advantage of having the gun out and pointed as to speed of getting the first shot off. I've done drills where one person holds another at gun point and the other draws and fires. It was about 50/50 to who got the first shot off.

Personally, I would go with something much more rules-lite, like maybe adding a fast draw skill and leave it at that. But, I don't see a problem with your rules if you want this kind of mini-game.

I can't see the video in the link above because my Flash Player isn't working. But, Revolvers don't have an advantage over semi-autos for fast draw, although an argument could be made for a single action revolver with an exposed trigger (and I say that as a wheel gun aficionado). Fast draw skill and holsters make a difference; the most extreme fast draw holsters wouldn't be practical for everyday use.

 

[DFW]

But, Revolvers don't have an advantage over semi-autos for fast draw,

Draw + fire, they have the clear edge. Try it and you'll see. Also, see what guns are used for world record setting... Proof is in the pudding

 

[AKAmra]

But, Revolvers don't have an advantage over semi-autos for fast draw,

Draw + fire, they have the clear edge. Try it and you'll see. Also, see what guns are used for world record setting... Proof is in the pudding

I've got over 20 years in law enforcement combat shooting; started with a revolver and currently carry a semi-auto. I am a shooting enthusiast and was a SASS member. I've done a whole lot of "try it".

"Fast Draw" competitions are mostly about the romance of the old west and the single action revolver - no semi-autos allowed. Your also talking about some pretty extreme holster designs that aren't very practical for any other use (please note that I allowed for this exact claim in my original post). BTW, the SAA is my favorite handgun.

Semi-autos dominate in all other combat competitions, even those that allow revolvers; although I'm of the opinion that a dedicated wheel-gun man can go toe to toe with any semi-auto - but it takes more skill (mostly for reloads). I'm not trying to convince anyone, just stating my opinion on the matter.

 

[far-trader]

...Fast draw skill and holsters make a difference; the most extreme fast draw holsters wouldn't be practical for everyday use.

Quite. I can see it now. Cowpoke with regular holster faces off with Fancy shooter with quick draw holster. Cowpoke strolls into the street at high noon and squares off waiting for Fancy. Fancy starts down the steps into the street... "Oops, my gun fell out of my holster, just a sec." picks it up, takes two more steps... "Not again, just a sec." picks it up again. Carefully, slowly walks to the center of the street in a walk that would earn him a management position in the Ministry of Silly Walks. Finally. Fancy squares off, his gun falls out of the holster again, a shot rings out. Cowpoke has drawn down and killed Fancy the second his gun left the holster, by the rules.

Besides, if you'd been able to see the video AKAmra (and DFW you should really have noticed it) the guy there with the fancy draw holster took about a dozen or more "practice" draws before he went for the shot. That won't fly in a showdown "Yeah, ok, I'm ready now. Hey! Where'd the Cowpoke go?" (...or BANG and Fancy is shot dead on his first practice draw proclaiming with his dying breath "...but I wasn't ready, it was just a practice draw.")

And of course the guy in the video was drawing down on the most deadly of foes, a small balloon tied to a stick. It's quite a lot easier to face someone armed with the same lethal weapon and murder in their heart.

Oh, and said balloon was what, 6 feet away. Aiming gets much easier when it's several yards down a street.

Of course this whole thing Sol666 is working on sounds more fantasy than reality, which is fine, long as he's aware of the facts and still wants to go the fantasy route. Facts like most "Wild West" shootings were in the back, or ambushed by superior numbers, at close range, against unarmed foes, etc. etc. NOT the nearly mythical showdown Sol666 is working out. And even then the numbers were more like a couple or so a year at the peak in the worst town in the west for lawlessness. Not one a week per the earlier thread.

True quick draw in the street showdowns were exceedingly rare events. Far more a fiction than reality. Perhaps even a near if not total fiction.

But I digress. Just pointing out the reality for comparison. And wondering if Sol666 next post will be about knockback from pistols, rifles, and shotguns throwing the victims bodily across the room, out the plate glass window, or off their horses (or the 8 legged Sleipnir inspired alien analog )

 

[DFW]

Semi-autos dominate in all other combat competitions, even those that allow revolvers;

Yes, as I stated, world record draw & shoot times are all held by those using revolvers. I've been shooting & hunting since I was 8. I wouldn't use a revolver for everyday use over my semi.

 

[DFW]

Besides, if you'd been able to see the video AKAmra (and DFW you should really have noticed it) the guy there with the fancy draw holster took about a dozen or more "practice" draws before he went for the shot. That won't fly in a showdown

I never said it would. I was just stating the fact that all else being equal, a revolver is faster at draw & shoot. Those are the facts.

 

[AKAmra]

Semi-autos dominate in all other combat competitions, even those that allow revolvers;

Yes, as I stated, world record draw & shoot times are all held by those using revolvers. I've been shooting & hunting since I was 8. I wouldn't use a revolver for everyday use over my semi.

You must have missed this part of my post:

'"Fast Draw" competitions are mostly about the romance of the old west and the single action revolver - no semi-autos allowed. Your also talking about some pretty extreme holster designs that aren't very practical for any other use (please note that I allowed for this exact claim in my original post). BTW, the SAA is my favorite handgun.'

 

[far-trader]

...Semi-autos dominate in all other combat competitions, even those that allow revolvers; although I'm of the opinion that a dedicated wheel-gun man can go toe to toe with any semi-auto - but it takes more skill (mostly for reloads). I'm not trying to convince anyone, just stating my opinion on the matter.

I did see a competition* some (20? 30?) years back on TV where a revolver did score very high if not win against semi-autos. It was pretty early in the "sport" so he may have had experience going for him against the new blood with their fancy semi-autos.

* what's the name for it? escapes me at the moment, the simulated street competition, pop-up/out targets, hostages/civilians, doors and windows opening, etc.

 

[AKAmra]

Besides, if you'd been able to see the video AKAmra (and DFW you should really have noticed it) the guy there with the fancy draw holster took about a dozen or more "practice" draws before he went for the shot. That won't fly in a showdown

I never said it would. I was just stating the fact that all else being equal, a revolver is faster at draw & shoot. Those are the facts.

You seem to have a real problem separating "Facts" and "My opinion"

 

[AKAmra]

...Semi-autos dominate in all other combat competitions, even those that allow revolvers; although I'm of the opinion that a dedicated wheel-gun man can go toe to toe with any semi-auto - but it takes more skill (mostly for reloads). I'm not trying to convince anyone, just stating my opinion on the matter.

I did see a competition* some (20? 30?) years back on TV where a revolver did score very high if not win against semi-autos. It was pretty early in the "sport" so he may have had experience going for him against the new blood with their fancy semi-autos.

* what's the name for it? escapes me at the moment, the simulated street competition, pop-up/out targets, hostages/civilians, doors and windows opening, etc.

IPSC?

http://www.ipsc.org/

 

[far-trader]

Besides, if you'd been able to see the video AKAmra (and DFW you should really have noticed it) the guy there with the fancy draw holster took about a dozen or more "practice" draws before he went for the shot. That won't fly in a showdown

I never said it would. I was just stating the fact that all else being equal, a revolver is faster at draw & shoot. Those are the facts.

And there is the key "all else being equal" but I think all else being equal includes real holsters for both sides, not cut down quick draw holsters and all the rest of the "tuning" done for quick draw competition just for the revolver. In that case (real world guns and holsters for everyday service) I think it's going to come down to aim and shots on target. And given that most shots will miss (statistically, there's a fact for you to look up) the advantage goes to the semi-auto with more and faster shots than the slower 6 shot single action revolver...

"...a seven <gasp> shooter!?" <dies> (points for reference )

 

[far-trader]

...

IPSC?

That'd probably be it Thanks!

 

[AKAmra]

...Fast draw skill and holsters make a difference; the most extreme fast draw holsters wouldn't be practical for everyday use.

Oh, and said balloon was what, 6 feet away. Aiming gets much easier when it's several yards down a street. )

Ha, true; and he was probably shooting hot blanks and popping the balloon with a spray of hot gun powder rather than a bullet.

 

[locarno24]

Agreed. This didn't really happen in the Old West. Locals will get gunned down as off world combat vets don't follow rules that are detrimental to their health.

Ture, but you have the possibility of others choosing to get involved if people are 'cheating'. You go "ha!" after shooting someone in the back of the head and then see half the saloon going for their guns...

Does this just determine who draws first? Does it determine if a shot hits? Does it go towards damage?

If I understood it right, it's to see who draws first and whether they get off a free snap shot or aimed shot before the combat proper begins. They still then need to roll to hit.


I can sort of understand the idea, and it sounds cool. Comments:

Only one person can win an opposed skill check - therefore if you've got two really, really good shootists both going for their guns, one of them still won't be able to draw their gun before the first round. The fact that I'm more likely to discharge my gun in the holster where there's a better opponent seems a little bizzarre.

How do you do an opposed skill check when there are three or more combatants, especially in an 'each man for themselves' situation? - whose roll do you compare yours to?

Odd that the results jump from a snap shot (essentially a standard attack with a -2) to an aimed shot (DM+1 or more) without going through a standard attack (DM+0).

If I roll an aimed shot, how aimed is it? Aiming can be anything from +1 to +6.

If I get an aimed shot from my quick draw, do I still lose my next minor action? If so, I might well prefer to put two snapshots down range if I'm a fairly good shot!

Wouldn't use the quick-draw rules for someone joining the fight mid-way through; just use the standard rules for rolling initiative and drawing your gun. Quickdraw is purely for mexican stand-offs between several people to see who gets a shot off before the fight starts; it's not going to pause and restart again if someone else weighs in.

Why Must I do something each mini round? If I'm in cover and waiting for you to waste your last two bullets in futile snap shots before drilling you in the head, why can't I?

Significant actions in mini round rules seem wierd; if I use a standard attack, that's the equivalent of aiming before firing, yes? So why do I miss the action after I fire, rather than the one before it? Surely the actual shot should come at the end of the significant action, not the start; if you make a standard attack and I fire a snapshot, then my gun should fire first, regardless of our order of actions within each round. Granted, I'll miss and you'll hit, but I should at least get to shoot first!


If defining turning (which is more detail than traveller usually goes into) then I ask a counter question - what's my arc of fire if I don't move? And does it increase or decrease with snapshots?

 

[Solomani666]

half the battles will start with two or more men/women squared off and looking at each other eye to eye.

I believe more Hollywood than how things historically occurred but no reason your imaginary world can't do things this way (especially in a society that believes in the book of old movie quotes) but will the non locals adhere to this tradition? Will it be just tradition or law governing conflicts?

New skill: Quickdraw.
The skill can not be taught, but is increased through experience and practice.
Having a gun combat level of of 1+ with a particular weapon automatically gives the character Quickdraw-0 with that weapon.

We've got gun skills already for how accurate someone is. There is the dex skill for how quick someone is. I've always assumed that these two together represent a persons "quickdraw" ability.

I can see breaking down wild west gun skills going to the extreme with skills like long range shot, shooting a moving target, shooting on horseback, 2 handgun shot, shooting while drunk...

I'm uncertain what quickdraw means to you because here it is a skill and then it is also a special type of combat action, there is the snap attack action, then there are changes like mini rounds and movement. It appears too complicated to me and more like a rewrite of the combat rules than a rule to accommodate street duels.

If most of the game play is a combat and a combat simulation is what you'd like, I'm sure you could just throw out the Traveller combat rules and incorporate combat rules that suit your needs better. Less tweaking.

Even though I don't completely understand it, I'll try to make comments on your proposal. Perhaps not too helpful and more to get your feedback and hopefully understand better what your trying to do.

A quick draw takes 1 minor action that combines initiative, the drawing/readying of a weapon and a snap attack.

I can see something like a rushed attack action. There are already special grappling rules, so a special set of rules for a duel or standoff makes sense to me.

An opposed skill check is made with each side rolling 2d6 and adding the following modifiers:

Does this just determine who draws first? Does it determine if a shot hits? Does it go towards damage?

+1 Character that draws/goes for his gun/knife first. (Only given to 1 character)

I don't think drawing quickly should give a bonus to hit or damage.

-4 Rifle/SMG etc.

Certainly some weapons will have disadvantages to being quickly readied, aimed, and fired.

+0 Target is in front of the character.
-1 Target is on the non-gun hand side of the character.
-2 Target is on the gun hand side of the character.
-4 Target is behind the character. (hearing, mirror, warning, etc.)

For me, if it isn't a face to face duel/standoff this should be elsewhere. A modification to regular combat rules?

+2 Gun/knife is in hand.
+6 Gun/Rifle is in hand and aimed at the other character.

Can you get +2 and +6 or should it be +4 Gun/Rifle aimed at the other character? Ok if this only determines who hits first but I don't think it should give a bonus to hit or damage.

+ Quickdraw skill. (-3 if unskilled or weapon-0)
+ Gun Combat skill. (-3 if unskilled)

Someone without gun skill and with very high +2 DM dex would have a -4 DM compared to someone with Gun level 0, quickdraw level 0, and just average dex being +0DM. Should a faster person draw slower?


My proposal
1) No quickdraw skill needed. Dex and gun skill DMs already represent this.
2) A duel/standoff uses an alternate opposed check system to determine who fires first. This system has a DMs you've indicated above for the difficulty to quickly draw certain types of weapons and weapon readiness. This only indicates who shoots first. See the books hasten rule.
3) Hitting and damage can probably occur as normal.

If you shoot someone in the back, you get hung for murder.
If you shoot someone without a gun you get hung for murder.
If you shoot someone while they aren't looking you get hung for murder.
If you shoot someone who draws first you go scott free.


The Quick Draw roll has nothing to do with damage.
All modifiers are added to the 2d6 that determines both initiative and overall effect.
The effect may or may not lead to a Snap Attack and very rarely an Aimed Attack.
All damage is calculated as per Traveller.



.

 

[Solomani666]

Only one person can win an opposed skill check - therefore if you've got two really, really good shootists both going for their guns, one of them still won't be able to draw their gun before the first round. The fact that I'm more likely to discharge my gun in the holster where there's a better opponent seems a little bizzarre.

How do you do an opposed skill check when there are three or more combatants, especially in an 'each man for themselves' situation? - whose roll do you compare yours to?

Odd that the results jump from a snap shot (essentially a standard attack with a -2) to an aimed shot (DM+1 or more) without going through a standard attack (DM+0).

If I roll an aimed shot, how aimed is it? Aiming can be anything from +1 to +6.

If I get an aimed shot from my quick draw, do I still lose my next minor action? If so, I might well prefer to put two snapshots down range if I'm a fairly good shot!

Each character rolls 2d6 adding the listed modifiers.
The highest result shoots first.

The same 2d6 roll is compared to the standard success of 8+ to determain the effect.
The (now labeled) Effect Table determines if the character actually gets the chance to shoot at all.

The combat continues with 2 second mini rounds.

Why Must I do something each mini round? If I'm in cover and waiting for you to waste your last two bullets in futile snap shots before drilling you in the head, why can't I?

A mini turn is 2 seconds of time.
Just like a normal turn a character must do 'something' even if that 'something' is nothing.

Significant actions in mini round rules seem wierd; if I use a standard attack, that's the equivalent of aiming before firing, yes? So why do I miss the action after I fire, rather than the one before it? Surely the actual shot should come at the end of the significant action, not the start; if you make a standard attack and I fire a snapshot, then my gun should fire first, regardless of our order of actions within each round. Granted, I'll miss and you'll hit, but I should at least get to shoot first!

A turn is 6 seconds.
A character can make 1 significant action and 1 minor action per combat turn.
Instead of a significant action a character can take 2 minor action for a total of three minor actions per turn.
Therefore a minor action takes approximately 2 seconds.
The combat round is divided into Mini Rounds of 2 seconds each with a just enough time for a character to perform a minor action.

Since an Aimed Attack takes 1 significant action (2 minor actions) the character may only perform free actions during the next Mini Turn.

I will probably change this to where the character states that they are aiming during the first Mini Turn and actually rolls to hit during the second Mini Turn.

Since an Aimed Attack take 2 Mini Turns, when do you think that the roll to hit should take place, during the first or the second Mini Turn?

If defining turning (which is more detail than traveller usually goes into) then I ask a counter question - what's my arc of fire if I don't move? And does it increase or decrease with snapshots?

Thanks for pointing out this omission.
90 degrees forward for all attacks seems right.
What do you think.


.