Someone explain stations to me

[animus]

I've never played a campaign . I'm gearing up my gaming group to begin one so I'm going over all the rules again to make sure one of us at least has a firm grasp.

I don't understand the advantages of a Space Station in a campaign. It's heli-expensive and costs RR. The advantages don't seem to compensate at all:

Guaranteed random PL scenario - big deal

Only lose the strategic target if station was involved in game - eh okay so what

Stations must be used in certain PL's and Scenarios - eh okay, big deal again but defender can choose it in otherwise.

However, assuming the station is a Battle PL "ship" the defender can't use it in say a 3 point Skirmish and in a 4 point battle, still has to come with 3 additional points of battle PL since the station isn't a "free" ship for the strategic target.

I don't get it. I'm confused.

 

[katadder]

the not losing the target unless the station is involved is huge thing, in our campaign i am going up against a station tonight, will be difficult.

 

[H]

the not losing the target unless the station is involved is huge thing, in our campaign i am going up against a station tonight, will be difficult.

yup, it's a bit of extra protection, so using one at say, and Industrial world, means you have a nuch better chance of keeping youir valuable target

 

[locarno24]

However, assuming the station is a Battle PL "ship" the defender can't use it in say a 3 point Skirmish

Which means that even if he loses, he can't lose the planet, jumpgate/etc.

This is invaluable for races like Crusade era EA or Minbari who find themselves rather screwed by a patrol-level/low point skirmish level game.

 

[animus]

When the target is chosen you have to decide whether to engage or not immediately so you don't know what the PL or game will be at the time you join the battle. It's all random after that. Chances are you won't be required to field the station and so can't lose the target but you can still lose the engagement (right?).

Hurm.... still don't know. triple the cost and 5 RR/turn for a battle ship you may never use.

 

[H]

thats the chance you take really. It does mean in a campaign where you are getting battered, you may be able to hang onto a target

 

[CaptBavo]

In the campaign Im involved in, my station has been invaluable, its allowed me to hold onto my industrial world, which there are only 2 in the system

 

[CZuschlag]

Keep in mind that, in certain scenarios, you may be able to avoid fielding the base, then run off the table on turn one. No losses, you keep your strategic location. You can probably do this 86.1% of the time. That's pretty impressive. Heck you even get 1 XP per ship that fled the board for free!

In multi-player campaigns, it gets much worse. If you bunker down on such a world, It amounts to throttling down your production to virutally guarantee unopposed income. This is a big deal. The other players will have had to sort out who is the big dog before they'll even think about you --- who wants a fight where is almost no chance of profit? It's the kind of thing that will only happen in the endgame; in the meantime, you've been steadly producing, all the time --- waiting for a moment...

One local Chicago gaming group has installed specific rules to handle these sorts of issues; but even then, people find reasons to build bases. That's probably a serious indicator to how powerful they really are, especially the Battle-level ones (they aren't prohibitively expensive).

 

[animus]

Why isn't a battle level station isn't prohibitively expensive? because they're worth it? Is that what you're saying?

What are the Chicago rules... sounds all gangster-like :lol:

 

[CZuschlag]

Most of the benefit you're getting from the station never involves fielding the satation in the first place -- so why does it have to be good? Might as well save as much RR as possible -- buy one of the Wal-Mast bases (Brostilli, Narn Listening Post, Orion being my favs if I had to actually fight with one).

The Chicago rules? The most compelling is the retreater rule. If a defender retreats from a fight before a time limit (usually here, 3 turns) to avoid the combat, all ships the retreat must roll at or above their CQ or LOSE A LEVEL OF CQ in addition to possibly losing the strategic location.

This is a huge penalty, coupled with the second rule: if a defender can possibly field enough ships to meet the fleet allocation points of his campaign fights this turn, he must. If he cannot, he must utilize his entire fleet. Ouch! No more hiding that base from a 8-War Carrier Clash mission -- it's proably your Carrier! Previously, you could have just fielded one War-level ship and fled the board on turn 1, taken no damage, and relied on your base to keep you the strategic location. Not here.

Still, people try to build bases. That speaks to their utility.

 

[prelude_to_war]

What are the Chicago rules... sounds all gangster-like :lol:

You know us in Chicago; Tommy-gun toting prohibitionists...

Although I can appreciate the utility of a space station, what were to happen in this possible however unlikely scenario:

A scenario is rolled up for Call to Arms, PL ends up being the equivalent of 1pt. War. By the book, my Minbari force MUST field the station...let's say my attacker fields a single Octurion whose Battle Laser outranges my Nuetron Laser by 5" (I also think this should be beam and not minibeam btw). Do I just hand over the station since I can't touch him? Or rather assume Minbari would never surrender and the Centauri win but at the cost of a destroyed station?

Same with Annihilation - the station is destroyed outright due to range and Centauri win again?

Granted, chances are slim a single Octurion would happen upon a lone Norgath Starbase but you see my point...

 

[CZuschlag]

Part the first: the lowest level engagement I can see is 3-Battle (3 is rollable on 1-1 on the points chart.) So, you won't be alone, even with a Norgath. Not that that's necessarily good.

Second, Prelude brings up another great reason to field Battle-Level stations; you can count upon sustainable support.

For Space Superiority to be inlucded is unfortunate. Given that you can win simply by claiming sectors of space makes for an easy win against unsupported War-level bases. You just rush many of the 2x2 squares at the end. The base can only be in one of them. Pretty cheesy. While the probability of the scenario is far too low, I would have thought both Planetary Assault and (in particular) Assassination to be much more compelling Base strike scenarios. Perhaps even Carrier Clash --- looking through my book shows that every single base would qualify as the Carrier in question, by wide margins.

So to your question, Prelude -- yeah, you'd be hosed. The Centauri would be the nightmare result. Long-range missiles would be easier, and much worse from EA -- but, they might not destroy you in time. That might just be a draw. Kalivas could hurt, bult Stealth going up to 4 and Interceptors 6 would probably keep you alive vs. 2 Kalivas for 10 turns. But, outside of those, there's nothing else (that isn't A-priority) out there that can make it a laugher. And there are some options:

--- in Annihilation, deploy in an Asteroid field. It's not like you're going to be moving or anything, and he can't CAF --- it'll all be All Stop. He mightn't dare move!

--- most likely, you're guarding a planet. If the planet is a valid part of the terrain, deploy behind it. Dust clouds will also (probably) do -- get up to the edge of one.

--- if desparate, consider time-wasting. He's only got 10 turns to get the job done. If you win deployment initiative and have nothing to hide in/behind (wow, what a nasty conjuction of events!), make him work to get to his shot. Even if he has to spend two turns getting there, he'll have 8 shots -- about half will vanish courtesy of Stealth -- 24 beams to deal with, vs. 400 hits to give -- it's not good, but it's a chance. Prayer is recommended.

It is my hope that some scenario issues like this also come under 2E consideration.....

And, finally, Chicago isn't a town of prohibitionists. We just make money off of it, that's all.

That's it for tonight --- I need to visit the speakeasy.

 

[CZuschlag]

Update for you, Prelude --

If he can even start on Turn 1 with the Lasers, it'll be a miracle if the Octurion gets the job done on its own. I looked at some of the rules, and found out that he needs to deal 600 points, not 400 points, to start to get VPs off that base. He's only got 6 Beams hot, and given Stealth at range 35 makes the base a 4+, good luck generating all that damage in time. My first crack at the math suggests an average of about 77 damage per turn you get through stealth with the Octurions' beams. While the spread in damage can be wide, the mass of dice here don't suggest so. You'd need to break stealth at 4+ 8 out of 9 firing turns if you were expecting to cripple the Norgath by the turn limit with an Octurion alone. Also known as --- good luck.

One on one vs. an Octurion: Will the station get pounded? Absolutely. Will it die? Maybe. Will it die without firing a shot in the time limit?

Cue Vince McMahon's music.
No chance. No chance in hell.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Stations are well worth having if you're doing well and have plenty of "spare" RR points. They're really hard to attack, with the large hull and crew values and the Targets trait, especially when backed up with a decent sized fleet. As mentioned, the rule that means you must attack the station to win the target alone can keep you in the campaign if things go bad later.

 

[greenboy]

I would like to see longer range weapons on all the space stations thought they are great big stable platforms they should be able to mount more powerful weapons than any ship of the same pl it is really bad with some of the smaller planetary defence style stations which can be out ranged but most of the ships in some fleets a big design flaw in an immovable weapon system