Some high guard questions/observations

barnest2

Mongoose
Ok, so thanks to my new PbP, I have some... observations and questions, about high guard, and space combat in particular.

1) Low-level capital ships, particuarly those without spinal mounts, occupy a strange space that is weirdly similar to some earth naval history. Back before HMS dreadnought, in the age of the iron-clads, there was a weapon invented called the Quick-firing breech loading 6 inch gun. It had a rate of fire of about one shell every 5 seconds, and could actually do more damage to an enemy ship than could a twelve inch non-quick-firing gun (quick firing versions of larger guns had yet to be invented). Now, I would like to direct your attention to the particle barbette. This weapon is mean. It does almost as much damage as a fusion gun (or hell, two thirds as much as a particle beam bay), and takes up one tenth of the space. You can mount a load of them on a space ship (under 2000 tons) and be a credible threat in barrage combat to a ship 4 times the size. It doesn't bug me, it just makes me think of that time period, when ships main armament was not as good in ship to ship combat as its secondary armament...

2) Armour, in barrage combat. The book says "yes, this means armour is more capable in barrage combat than normal"... but is it really? I agree at a low scale, when you're only firing a relatively small number of guns in each barrage (under 50). But over this, isn't it less effective? It is only applied once to a whole battery of guns, and with large numbers and good crew skill, a beam laser barrage can damage ships with an armour of over 10...

3) I have a feeling like the cost of railgun bays are a misprint, or at least that I'm missing something. My reasoning is that the railgun 50 ton bay is 30 mega credits. However, the barbette is only 4 mega credits... this is a little odd. Even the particle beam bay is only 2.5 times more expensive than its barbette, and I consider it the much better weapon. And the particle beam bay ends up being cheaper. So, why is this so much more expensive? I don't understand this jump in numbers, even if the railguns are suppposed to cost so much.

4) why can a 100 ton small craft carry more weapons than a 100 ton space ship?

5) Anyone know the thrust rating of a torpedo? Also, when high guard mentions missiles, i'm assuming it means both missiles and torpedoes? (as it talks about anti-missile defences).

6) how many small craft can be launched per turn from standard hangers?

7) In the barrage damage table, what are the '10-dice barrage' lines there for? people who are bad at maths?

8 ) Again, barrage problems. it seems very very difficult for a barrage attack to do system damage. It takes a net roll, not a raw roll, of 8+ to do system damage. 8 is also the roll which does 125% damage... help?

9) the alternative movement rules are awesome. I wish I has worked them out while I was doing physics at college, they are perfect for learning momentum :D

And thats about it... wow I went on a bit. Anyone with enough time to read it, thankyou just for that :D
anyone who answers my questions, gets a free cookie...
 
barnest2 said:
Also, when high guard mentions missiles, i'm assuming it means both missiles and torpedoes? (as it talks about anti-missile defences).

"Torps" are actually small space craft (about air raft sized). This is critical as anti-missile fire can only happen at the last second (point defense) due to their VERY small size. Torps being small craft like, can be pounded on with ANY ship to ship weapon as soon as launched. Or at least per any rules about firing on smaller craft.
 
barnest2 said:
Really? I have yet to find any reference to this capability...

You won't as it would be listing a "negative" rule. The positive rule is found ONLY in regards to standard missiles. IE: Missiles (exact definition) can only be fired on as they are about to impact.
 
barnest2 said:
Ok, so thanks to my new PbP, I have some... observations and questions, about high guard, and space combat in particular.

1) Low-level capital ships, particuarly those without spinal mounts, occupy a strange space that is weirdly similar to some earth naval history. Back before HMS dreadnought, in the age of the iron-clads, there was a weapon invented called the Quick-firing breech loading 6 inch gun. It had a rate of fire of about one shell every 5 seconds, and could actually do more damage to an enemy ship than could a twelve inch non-quick-firing gun (quick firing versions of larger guns had yet to be invented). Now, I would like to direct your attention to the particle barbette. This weapon is mean. It does almost as much damage as a fusion gun (or hell, two thirds as much as a particle beam bay), and takes up one tenth of the space. You can mount a load of them on a space ship (under 2000 tons) and be a credible threat in barrage combat to a ship 4 times the size. It doesn't bug me, it just makes me think of that time period, when ships main armament was not as good in ship to ship combat as its secondary armament...

I like your analogy.

2) Armour, in barrage combat. The book says "yes, this means armour is more capable in barrage combat than normal"... but is it really? I agree at a low scale, when you're only firing a relatively small number of guns in each barrage (under 50). But over this, isn't it less effective? It is only applied once to a whole battery of guns, and with large numbers and good crew skill, a beam laser barrage can damage ships with an armour of over 10...

You are correct. For very large barrages, the armour is less effective. Poor choice of words in the text.

3) I have a feeling like the cost of railgun bays are a misprint, or at least that I'm missing something. My reasoning is that the railgun 50 ton bay is 30 mega credits. However, the barbette is only 4 mega credits... this is a little odd. Even the particle beam bay is only 2.5 times more expensive than its barbette, and I consider it the much better weapon. And the particle beam bay ends up being cheaper. So, why is this so much more expensive? I don't understand this jump in numbers, even if the railguns are suppposed to cost so much.

I agree. The Railgun bay should only be 2.5-3 times the cost of the Barbette.

4) why can a 100 ton small craft carry more weapons than a 100 ton space ship?

Uhm, because they don't have a jump grid built into the hull and that gives them more room for weapons?????? (Frantic Handwaving here)

Actually, there is no real reason that the rules for the number of fixed mounts couldn't be applied to larger ships, trading turrets for fixed mounts; I believe in older versions of Traveller, the Solomani did this. Fixed mounts require the Pilot to "Line Up the Shot" so they have a more limited role than true turrets. Also, watch the power requirements on small ships, they can't mount too many energy weapons without BIG power plants.

5) Anyone know the thrust rating of a torpedo? Also, when high guard mentions missiles, i'm assuming it means both missiles and torpedoes? (as it talks about anti-missile defences).

Torpedoes have the same thrust rating as missiles (Thrust 10), see HG Page 47. When they use the term Missile, they often mean Torpedo as well (not always, but usually), see HG Page 48.

6) how many small craft can be launched per turn from standard hangers?

Normally only one small craft can be launched per turn from standard hangars, I would expand that to 1 craft per SECTION of the ship on Capital Ships. See page 66 of HG. Launch tubes allow faster deployment of small craft (10 per round per launch tube).

7) In the barrage damage table, what are the '10-dice barrage' lines there for? people who are bad at maths?

That is the only reason I can see. It allows you to combine the effects of multiple columns to get to the actual Barrage size that you have. So if you have a Barrage-60, you could use the Barrage-50 and Barrage-10 columns and add the results together. It saves interpolating. Also the smallest Barrage "allowed" is 10-dice, so you have the 10-dice column.

8 ) Again, barrage problems. it seems very very difficult for a barrage attack to do system damage. It takes a net roll, not a raw roll, of 8+ to do system damage. 8 is also the roll which does 125% damage... help?

I don't think there is a fix for this one except to use a house rule. My personal opinion is that the Barrage rules were not explained very well, so there seems to be a lot of holes in how it is used. Others have been better at putting all the pieces together, perhaps they can answer this one.

9) the alternative movement rules are awesome. I wish I has worked them out while I was doing physics at college, they are perfect for learning momentum :D

They are much better.

And thats about it... wow I went on a bit. Anyone with enough time to read it, thankyou just for that :D
anyone who answers my questions, gets a free cookie...

ME LIKE COOKIES!
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Torpedoes have the same thrust rating as missiles (Thrust 10), see HG Page 47. When they use the term Missile, they often mean Torpedo as well (not always, but usually), see HG Page 48.

Actually, pg. 47 is a rule change specific to Missile rules from CRB. What was the speed of Torps in CRB? See the problem? The size of a torp means it would fall under vehicle design rules. Yet, another game design screw up.
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
I agree. The Railgun bay should only be 2.5-3 times the cost of the Barbette.
Agreed. I may change this.

Also the smallest Barrage "allowed" is 10-dice, so you have the 10-dice column.
Actually you can fire smaller barrages. High guard says "At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same type, or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted".


ME LIKE COOKIES!

THEN HAVE A COOKIE!!!
Also, thanks for the reply :D
 
DFW said:
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Torpedoes have the same thrust rating as missiles (Thrust 10), see HG Page 47. When they use the term Missile, they often mean Torpedo as well (not always, but usually), see HG Page 48.

Actually, pg. 47 is a rule change specific to Missile rules from CRB. What was the speed of Torps in CRB? See the problem? The size of a torp means it would fall under vehicle design rules. Yet, another game design screw up.

It does have a volume of 16.75m cubed (or so). I don't know, this is aggravating. The errata has nothing to say on the topic. I think for now I will have them at thrust 8.
 
barnest2 said:
It does have a volume of 16.75m cubed (or so). I don't know, this is aggravating. The errata has nothing to say on the topic. I think for now I will have them at thrust 8.

Actually, pg. 61 HG "Each torpedo displaces 2.5 tons" = 35 k-liters. Quite large.

Now, I would allow a 50% higher speed & power output than could be designed using the vehicle design rules because you could be "overclocking" the PP & drive as it is one use only. At the end of the movement the drives & PP aren't burned out.
 
I was assuming the torpedo was (in deckplans) one square by one square by 5 squares (or 1.5x1.5x7.5) which is 16.75 metres cubed.
It is very big yes. I kinda-sorta'ed the diameter, and its probably somewhere between a 55 and 68 inch torpedo (a common one these days is 21 inches...). I think it would be closer to 55, once you get a cradle and everything in there.
 
I dug up my MT Ref Manual.

Under launch facilities it states that 1 craft per turn for Ordinary Launch facilities. Launch Tubes (a specific design feature for war ships) allow up to 40 craft/turn.
 
barnest2 said:
in mong-trav launch tubes are 10 per turn...
But 1 per turn for standard is good :) thankyou kindly...

No prob. Another note from MT: If you are using a dispersed structure main ship. ALL craft may launch in one turn...
 
Ooooh. I like that one... problem of that of course being that a dispersed ship cannot be armoured (at least in the capital ranges)
 
barnest2 said:
Ooooh. I like that one... problem of that of course being that a dispersed ship cannot be armoured (at least in the capital ranges)

Correct. But, you could use it as a carrier that stays WAY back and, launches a gazillion heavily armed/amoured/fast fighters... :twisted:
 
At which point you might as well just have 4 or 5 launch tubes...
But it could be amusing to just a macross style flurry of launches... then realise its bombers :D
 
barnest2 said:
At which point you might as well just have 4 or 5 launch tubes...
But it could be amusing to just a macross style flurry of launches... then realise its bombers :D

The trouble with launch tubes is they take up a lot of space.
 
barnest2 said:
Not really. A 40 ton tube is only 1000 tons, which is nothing to a large carrier (even in my small ship games)...

Which is 1,000 tons that could have been used to store more fighters, weapons and so on.

There's also the extra crew and staterooms for the crew to consider, not that it makes up much of the tonnage needed.
 
True, but I would rather the ship survived and had slightly fewer fighters than was entirely un-armoured but could launch everything at once.
 
Back
Top