So are we 'officially' at TL 8.25 or what?

ottarrus

ottarrus

Emperor Mongoose
Well, we have two successful experiments in 'cold' fusion power. 'Successful experiment' being defined as the fusion reaction producing more power than it takes to ignite the process.
And ten years ago we successfully measured gravity waves, proving that gravity exists on the electromagnetic spectrum. [LIGO link below]
And this year we have successfully produced a working directional plasma projector in a semi-portable state.
So where do you think we are on Traveller's TL scale? 7.5? 8? 8.25?
[link to LIGO gravitational experiment]
en.wikipedia.org

First observation of gravitational waves - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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Oh, they're absolutely prototypes.
Don't get me wrong here. Rail guns [i.e. 'Gauss' cannon] turned out to be a bust, as did laser weaponry experiments. We are NOT gonna invent anti-grav in my lifetime, and I sincerely doubt we'll actually complete the Artemis Project and both colonize the moon and put a man on Mars in my lifetime.
To put it in the words of the immortal BGEN Edwin 'Buzz' Aldrin:

Aldrin Facebook.jpg
 
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When fusion plants are powering cities we will be almost at TL8 - experimental and prototype begin at TL6
When the laser carbine may be used as an antipersonnel weapon we will be almost TL8 - as yet there are not even prototypes... or are there
When the air/raft is in generala use we will be almost TL8 - they may or may not be experimenting with this stuff depending on the thickness of your tin foil hat.

When all three are achieved then we are TL8.
 
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I'd leave it free floating.

The industrial base need not all be at the same level, though each part might be capable of manufacturing it's specialized product at a specific technological level.
 
The problem with TL is manyfold. What is the definition of Tech Level? Everyone on here seems to have their own opinion and no one seems to have a definitive answer, including @MongooseMatt . So, first define Tech Level. What about organic technology? Why is an organic Computer/2 a higher TL than any other Computer/2? They both have the same capabilities? The excuse listed in the books for this is because Charted Space isn't organically focused so this TL is usually 16+, but in other universes organic technology could be the default in which case, all organic technology is the same TL as technology more recognizable to humans of our time period. Why is that in a main rulebook and not in a setting guide?

Once you have defined TL, then you need to know if 1 number is good enough for everything, or if the system needs more granularity. Earth might be TL-8 in some things, but TL-6 or 7 in others.

Without those things happening, I am not sure how you'd ever be able to answer this question.

Here is a better question. What TL is the human body? The brain is an organic computer. What TL is it? We can clone body parts, but we can also grow entire bodies inside the body of other humans. What TL is pregnancy? Given all of this, in a setting-agnostic rulebook, I am not sure how to make it all make sense.
 
Sigtrygg said:
FF&S had a good section on making your own TL progression for your own setting. Mongoose owns this, they could re-purpose it.
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Make the TL chart the same for everything. Keep it roughly as it is now, but detail it enough that they break down each Technological Era into 12 or 15 different divisions so that it can be used even if you want to run a universe where everything is TL 6 through 9 or 12 through 15. Make it detailed enough that you can port it to any universe. Do not make any distinction between organic and non-organic in the TL charts. Leave that up to the Referees or the writers who are writing setting books. An example of this is organic technology versus non-organic technology.

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The default should be both at the same TL and then say something like, "In universes where biotech is less common, a biotech machine will often be of a much higher cost, if they are available at all."

As far as TL goes, an organic Computer/2 should be the same TL as a non-organic Computer/2
 
At the risk of being a curmudgeonly grognard, all the way back in 77 it said this:

"The technological level tables have several spaces or holes, and such gaps should be filled in by the referee or the players when they discover items or devices of interest."

The MegaTraveller tech chart, which is the basis for the MgT WBH fills in every TL for a variety of TLs...

this is one of the reasons the WBH is a Third Imperium book and not a generic book.
 
MasterGwydion said:
Would be better if it were labeled as such.
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I disagree. The World Builder's Handbook [and the Sector Builder's Guide boxed set] are Official Traveller Universe books, not Third Imperium.
You can simply and easily design worlds and sectors that have absolutely nothing whatever to do any polity in Charted Space using those resources, but the tech levels, social descriptions, and laws are definitely OTU /Charted Space [these are two terms for the same setting] based.
 
ottarrus said:
I disagree. The World Builder's Handbook [and the Sector Builder's Guide boxed set] are Official Traveller Universe books, not Third Imperium.
You can simply and easily design worlds and sectors that have absolutely nothing whatever to do any polity in Charted Space using those resources, but the tech levels, social descriptions, and laws are definitely OTU /Charted Space [these are two terms for the same setting] based.
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Then it should be labeled as a Charted Space book as it is only applicable in Charted Space. Although, the more I think abou tit, you may be incorrect. It is only good for producing human-space in Charted Space. The info doesn't work for Aslan, Vargr, Hiver, K'kree, Droyne. It just works for human space within Charted Space.
 
MasterGwydion said:
Then it should be labeled as a Charted Space book as it is only applicable in Charted Space. Although, the more I think abou tit, you may be incorrect. It is only good for producing human-space in Charted Space. The info doesn't work for Aslan, Vargr, Hiver, K'kree, Droyne. It just works for human space within Charted Space.
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No, but they help you design your own races to fill the worlds and sectors you design. It's not just Human space.
 
ottarrus said:
No, but they help you design your own races to fill the worlds and sectors you design. It's not just Human space.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't it still use all of the same social and economic formulas even if the only races that those formulas work for are human worlds or human-in-alien-suit worlds?
 
MasterGwydion said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't it still use all of the same social and economic formulas even if the only races that those formulas work for are human worlds or human-in-alien-suit worlds?
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Well, the alien race they designed was a quadruped with a head on each end [very Dr Doolittle-ish, frankly]. And it gives a lot of room for referee customization. Is it perfect? No, probably not. Is it usable for any Traveller referee, whether in Charted Space or not? Yes. It is. Will you have to tweak it some? Probably. But name a supplement to any game that doesn't require tweaking to fit one's game.
 
ottarrus said:
I disagree. The World Builder's Handbook [and the Sector Builder's Guide boxed set] are Official Traveller Universe books, not Third Imperium.
You can simply and easily design worlds and sectors that have absolutely nothing whatever to do any polity in Charted Space using those resources, but the tech levels, social descriptions, and laws are definitely OTU /Charted Space [these are two terms for the same setting] based.
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You can disagree all you want but you won't change my mind, the World Builder's handbook is a Third Imperium Book setting ie charted space book, not a generic design your own universe book. The Imperium or some variation is mentioned 128 times, the TL progression chart is Third Imperium, the IISS is mentioned throughout the book 105 times.
Where is the mention of stutterwarp, or the scouting corporations of the T2300 setting?

The Sector Construction guide likewise only mentions the Third Imperium (so is a charted space book) - 79 times, not to mention all the major races. No mention of pentapod or kafer...

Mongoose classifies books as Third Imperium setting even if they are only dealing with Alsan, it is a term for the charted space setting not just the Third Imperium. neither of those books mentions T2300 or bespoke settings, they are aimed at detailing charted space, not to mention the rest of the galaxy - the Third Imperium setting, what we used to call the OTU.
 
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Since when did anyone ever say that Traveller was setting neutral /agnostic?
There are other settings [2300, Pioneer, Dark Conspiracy] that use the 2d6 mechanics, but they're offshoots of the basic Traveller Charted Space /OTU product.
And let's be 100% here: there is no alternate setting that pulls down as much sales as the Traveller OTU. Not 2300, not Zozer, not anybody. Why are you guys faulting Mongoose for following its sales figures?
If you want a setting neutral /agnostic 2d6 system, there are several authors that have tried it. Cephus, Zozer, etc. You can find their work all over DTRPG. Personally, I love the Traveller setting more than I love the mechanics of 2d6. YMMV and all that, but I find 2d6 to be much less adaptable than d100 for personally designed milieux. But I'm down for new material on the setting I've loved for nearly 50 years every day of the week. I don't have to agree with it, after all. That's what 'IMTU' means.
And what does ANY of this have to do with estimating Earth's current tech level?
 
ottarrus said:
Since when did anyone ever say that Traveller was setting neutral /agnostic?
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Since the very first edition in 1977.

Traveller is the rules, not the setting.
ottarrus said:
There are other settings [2300, Pioneer, Dark Conspiracy] that use the 2d6 mechanics, but they're offshoots of the basic Traveller Charted Space /OTU product.
And let's be 100% here: there is no alternate setting that pulls down as much sales as the Traveller OTU. Not 2300, not Zozer, not anybody. Why are you guys faulting Mongoose for following its sales figures?
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I'm not, I just want a bit of clarity.

The current 2nd edition of Mongoose Traveller is the roleplaying game for the Third imperium/OTU/Charted Space setting, much like MegaTraveller, and unlike classic Traveller.


ottarrus said:
If you want a setting neutral /agnostic 2d6 system, there are several authors that have tried it.
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I already have one thanks, it's called Traveller and it came out in 1977, with a revised version in 1981. The setting was detailed in a periodical called thee Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society and in numerous adventures and supplements, although many of the adventures did not rely on the setting at all.
ottarrus said:
Cephus, Zozer, etc. You can find their work all over DTRPG. Personally, I love the Traveller setting more than I love the mechanics of 2d6.
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You mean you love the Third Imperium, Charted Space, and the OTU more than you like the game system the setting was designed to illustrate the use of (almost, they didn't always use the rules as written when writing for the setting).
ottarrus said:
YMMV and all that, but I find 2d6 to be much less adaptable than d100 for personally designed milieux. But I'm down for new material on the setting I've loved for nearly 50 years every day of the week. I don't have to agree with it, after all. That's what 'IMTU' means.
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I've never been that much of a fan of the Third Imperium et al setting, too much contradiction and inconsistency. I don't use it all that much as it is written.
Doesn't mean I dislike it, I have rather a lot of material for it after all :)
ottarrus said:
And what does ANY of this have to do with estimating Earth's current tech level?
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I have no idea. I thought the Earth's current TL discussion was over by now, is there anything new to bring to the discussion?

Still TL7, with a bit of experimental stuff going on.
 
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