Skills and Max Ranks

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Ok, this is a question that has haunted me since I started with DnD. If I multiclass, are my max ranks in skills equal to my overall combined levels (also called character level) or do they depend on my class the skill is in? If I have the skill in both classes, do they then go on both classes to get max ranks or just the higher one? Also, does my cross class skills work the same or is my cross class dependent only on the class or the other? Please help, I sorta have a way I am doing this but I want to know the way it was intended to be done.

 

[Oly]

I've always played D20 so that the max ranks are based on your total character level.

When a multi-class character goes up a level then the skill that they try and raise has a limit set by the class they're going up in.

For example imagine we have a character who's a Soldier 4 and a Thief 3, they're about to go up to Thief 4. The skill limits for an 8th level character are 11 and 5.5.

Ride is class skill for soldier but not the thief. The character's ride skill is 8. They cannot increase it using the thief class skill points as it's already exceeded the maximum for a non class skill. If they had gone up as a soldier they could have done.

Note that in Conan bonus skill points gained from intelligence can be spent on skills as if they we always class skills. That certainly means that they can be bought on a 1 for 1 basis but I also think that it means that the class skill limit is applied.

Thus while the Soldier/Thief couldn't raise his ride skill in the above example using his class skill points he could raise it using the bonus points from intelligence.

 

[Halfbat]

Thus while the Soldier/Thief couldn't raise his ride skill in the above example using his class skill points he could raise it using the bonus points from intelligence.

I think you'll find there is nothing to stop a character using class skill points on non-class skills. The Thief could spend class skill points on a non-class skill (in this case Ride) providing he spends double (2 skill points for each rank) up to the full maximum for his character level (from the AE). As mentioned, the bonus point is on a one-for- one-rank basis.

The SRD also explicitly mentions that "If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)"

A bit of a waste of points, mind.

:roll:

 

[Oly]

I think you'll find there is nothing to stop a character using class skill points on non-class skills. The Thief could spend class skill points on a non-class skill (in this case Ride) providing he spends double (2 skill points for each rank) up to the full maximum for his character level (from the AE). As mentioned, the bonus point is on a one-for- one-rank basis.

I should have made myself a bit clearer, when I said "class skill points" I meant skill points gained from his class rather than from his intelligence. For a thief he would get 8 of those points. Sorry if my terminology was a bit off.

Ride is not a class skill for a thief so despite it being one for being a soldier it would cost double the number of skill points gained from going up a level in thief to raise.

The reason I said that he couldn't spend those points on ride was that I thought that being as how it was a non-class skill for a thief then it was already over the limit.

However your next comment shows that I was wrong on that:

The SRD also explicitly mentions that "If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)"

Thanks for that SRD reference, handy thing that.....

 

[Sutek]

It says on page 75 that "maximum rank in a class skill is your character level +3." Not Class Level, which would be different.

Since class skills switch around when you switch "active" classes each time you level up, the max will also differ unless you stick to one class your whole career.

For example, if you level up in some class that has Bluff as a class skill, you could increase the ranks of that skill up to you character level +3. Say you're leveling in Barbarian, but you are a Soldier 5/Barbarian 4, then your Class SKill Rank limit would be 9 ranks for Bluff at level 4.

Do make sure to calculate Class skills and Inteligence bonus skill points separately, because you can spend skill points that comes exclusively from your high intelegence in excess of that class max-ranks limit. In other words, if you're really smart, you can exceed the limit of your class.

8)

 

[Foxworthy]

It says on page 75 that "maximum rank in a class skill is your character level +3." Not Class Level, which would be different.

Since class skills switch around when you switch "active" classes each time you level up, the max will also differ unless you stick to one class your whole career.

For example, if you level up in some class that has Bluff as a class skill, you could increase the ranks of that skill up to you character level +3. Say you're leveling in Barbarian, but you are a Soldier 5/Barbarian 4, then your Class SKill Rank limit would be 9 ranks for Bluff at level 4.

I think you mean 12 ranks, Solider 5 + Barbarian 4 + 3 would be 12. Since your character level is equal tot he sum of all your class levels.

 

[Oly]

Since class skills switch around when you switch "active" classes each time you level up, the max will also differ unless you stick to one class your whole career.

That's not what the SRD says and given how Conan is more multi-class friendly than D&D I can't see why they would have changed that concept.

For a Thief 3/Soldier 4 who goes up a level in Thief then the maximum that he can take ride to is 11. As per the SRD Ride is a class skill for one of his classes (Soldier) so the limit is Character level, 8, + 3.

How you're saying it is is how I thought it should be when I first posted to this thread. Having seen what the SRD has to say on it and also thinking that I know that's how the Star Wars D20 game works then I've been convinced otherwise.

Do make sure to calculate Class skills and Inteligence bonus skill points separately, because you can spend skill points that comes exclusively from your high intelegence in excess of that class max-ranks limit. In other words, if you're really smart, you can exceed the limit of your class.

The intelligence points allow you to purchase any skill at the cost of one point per rank, they don't seem to allow you to break either the class or non-class skill limits.

The only reference to this I can find in the rule book is on pages 74 & 75. In the paragraph about purchasing the points they make reference to the difference intelligence points make. In the paragraph about maximum ranks they make no comment at all about intelligence points being any different. The limits are limits.

 

[Trodax]

The intelligence points allow you to purchase any skill at the cost of one point per rank, they don't seem to allow you to break either the class or non-class skill limits.

The only reference to this I can find in the rule book is on pages 74 & 75. In the paragraph about purchasing the points they make reference to the difference intelligence points make. In the paragraph about maximum ranks they make no comment at all about intelligence points being any different. The limits are limits.

Here's a thread where Vincent Darlage states his opinion on the matter: skills raised with bonus skill points from Int are treated as class skills in all regards, meaning they have a maximum of character level + 3.
Oh, and here is another thread where this was also discussed.

Honestly, I don't really see the point with halved maximum ranks for cross-class skills (especially if the Int bonus points can be used to supersede it). I mean, the double cost of purchasing cross-class skills is an extremely severe restriction on its own. A houserule which I like a lot is to just have the maximum for all skills always be character level + 3. Makes it a lot easier and also removes the confusion when you're multiclassing.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Thanks for the help guys it makes a little more sense. If this is wrong, please let me know:

-Class skills of the class you are leveling are equal to all classes (character level) combined +3 (ex.: thief 3\scholar 3\ soldier 2 is total for class skill 11)

-Cross class being raised is half of that (ex: above it would only be 5)

-if using Intelligence bonus points, it may be bought up to character level +3

If I am off, let me know. Thanks again.

 

[Oly]

Class skills of the class you are leveling are equal to all classes (character level) combined +3 (ex.: thief 3\scholar 3\ soldier 2 is total for class skill 11)

The maximum rank for class skills it as you give. Remember that for the purposes of maximum ranks only a skill is considered a class skill if it's a class skill for any of the characters classes.

For example if a Soldier/Thief goes up a level in thief then for the maximum for ride is Character Level +3. Even though ride is not a class skill for Thief it is for Soldier.

This only applies to the maximum. It would still cost two skill points to raise ride when levelling up as a thief.

if using Intelligence bonus points, it may be bought up to character level +3

I don't think so. The intelligence bonus points only change how much it costs to purchase a rank in a skill not what the maximum limit is. Thus a pure Thief can raise Ride by one rank for one intelligence bonus point but the cross-class max ranks limit applies.

 

[Trodax]

-Class skills of the class you are leveling are equal to all classes (character level) combined +3 (ex.: thief 3\scholar 3\ soldier 2 is total for class skill 11)

Correct.

-Cross class being raised is half of that (ex: above it would only be 5)

Correct.

-if using Intelligence bonus points, it may be bought up to character level + 3.

Yeah, the rules aren't totally clear on this. I play it exactly as you write (see the links I posted above), but an alternative interpretation is the one that Oly has; the bonus points only make it cheaper to buy skills, but don't affect the maximum you may raise it to.

 

[Sutek]

I think you mean 12 ranks, Solider 5 + Barbarian 4 + 3 would be 12. Since your character level is equal tot he sum of all your class levels.

DOH!!

Yeah, that's what I meant.

In regards to the idea of cross class skills "swithcing around" it doesn't have anything to do with Max ranks, so I'm not sure where you'r ecorrecting me, Oly.

Max ranks is always Character level +3.

Cross class skill change depending opn what your current class is; that's the whole point. When you aren't a Thief, class skills for Thief cost 2 points to raise instead of 1 unless the skill in question is common between the classes your character has.

Otherwise, why differentiate class and cross-class skills at all?

Also, INT bonus points for skills can be spent on skills for 1:1 regardless of class or cross class. Maybe that's what you're thinking of.

Or am I mixed up?

 

[Oly]

In regards to the idea of cross class skills "swithcing around" it doesn't have anything to do with Max ranks, so I'm not sure where you'r ecorrecting me, Oly.

Max ranks is always Character level +3.

Cross class skill change depending opn what your current class is; that's the whole point. When you aren't a Thief, class skills for Thief cost 2 points to raise instead of 1 unless the skill in question is common between the classes your character has.

We might well be agreeing here......

I think the issue is "class skills for Thief cost 2 points to raise instead of 1 unless the skill in question is common between the classes your character has".

The SRD says "If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank", it clarifies out that the maximum rank is.

It doesn't generalise and say "A skill is a class skill for a multiclass character if it is a skill skill for any of their classes." That would cover both the limit and the purchasing cost.

It doesn't make any reference to it changing the purchasing cost at all, just how the maximum limit is affected.

Thus if a Soldier/Thief goes up a level in thief then ride will still cost him 2 skill points for one rank, it's not a class skill for thief. Ride is a class skill for soldier so as per the SRD the maximum limit is character level +3 but that's the only usual rule that the SRD overrides.

I do believe that if they intended to change the purchasing cost then they would have said that rather than only mention the limit.

Furthermore it also stops a clever PC taking a single level in a class with a lot of class skils alongside a class with few, such as soldier, in order to overcome the class skill limits of his chosen class for ever more.

A short list of class skills making other skills expensive to purchase is an important balancing aspect of the classes. Being able to permanently override that just by taking one level in another class just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the input.

I think the stuff on the Int bonus I may house rule a little to make it easier for the players and I without giving them too much power.

 

[Sutek]

I just calculate it as two separate skill points pools that players can spend. In other words, it might be (2+INT) x 4, so I calculate 8 for class and INT x 4 for the intelligence based. (2+INT) woul dbe two separate pools equalling 2 and whatever INT bonus is.

 

[slaughterj]

I couldn't care less what the rule is on this, I presume it is character level +3, because (1) that's the easiest to see that characters are correctly made according to that requirement, and (2) once characters have had levels added, it is very difficult to back-figure where points were allocated along the way, and really isn't worth the trouble. Hopefully the rule is actually that as well

 

[Sutek]

That's the rule because that's what's in the book. Max ranks are Character level +3. But we were also discussing Max Ranks as well as Cross Class expense when a character has more than one class. Two separate discussions came out of the original question. The two topics are linked, but are acually separate rules. Max Ranks depends on Character level +3 and Cross Class or not is determined by the class that the character is currently leveled in.

But, if you couldn't care less, then why respond at all? :roll:

 

[sbarrie]

I was ruling that cross-class skills had a lower maximum rank, as per D&D3.0. Setting max ranks to a flat character level+3 sounds good. Really good. I don't care if it's supported in the rules or not, my new campaign will use this.

 

[Sutek]

Well, it is good, but it's even better when you consider that the skill points that you get from INT can be spent 1:1 regardless of whether a skill is class or cross-class.

8)