Shadows & Vorlons in campaigns - Costs

[Hash]

This has bugged me for ages so I'll raise it on the forums...

In campaign games Shadows (and Vorlons) pay double for reinforcements because of the advantage they have in not having to pay for repairs and recrew...ok

In what way is this balanced? It is MUCH MUCH cheaper to repair ships than they can EVER save...don't believe me? Play a campaign..

Look at the Shadow choices:Armageddon: Ship 250 hits
War: Hunter 175 Hits
Raid: Scout 75 Hits
Patrol: Fighter 1 Hit

Now, since these guys take damage a different way these correspond to, very roughly (yes I know they don't take crits the same way), the same number of normal hits / 3.5 so:

Armageddon: Ship 250/3.5 = 72 Normal Damage
War: Hunter 175/3.5 = 50 Normal Damage
Raid: Scout 75/3.5 = 22 Normal Hits

So great don't have to repair these ships eh....err you got the bad end of the deal on that self-repair insurance policy, look how easy it is to repair.

Armageddon - the Ship costs 80RR to purchase, i.e. 40RR extra for the "cost saving" of not having to buy crew.
War - Completely repair/recrew/uncripple ship for 25RR, cost even? No, not unless you routinely bring the ship to 1 damage every battle although this is the best of a bad deal.
Scout - Completely repair/recrew/uncripple ship for 13RR..2RR down...

You can repair for 1RR per 5 damage, assuming 72 Normal hits that means I can completely repair the ship from 1 Hit for about 14RR...even if I double for the non-existent crew that's 28RR add 5RR (for normal ships pay to repair crit status) that's 33RR. Conclusion? Even if he almost completely trash the Shadow ship you are still paying through the nose for self repair. Note that doesn't include all the myriad of bonuses that some races get for repairing and re crewing, or that some Strategic Targets give bonuses too. And don't get me started on why 1 Wing of Shadow fighters costs 10RR...excuse me?!

Bottom line is that the vaunted "self repair" is good but it's not worth DOUBLE points....1.5 would be fairer I think.(and straight 5RR cost for fighters).

 

[katadder]

so 33RR costs for repairs and recrew + the 40RR cost for the ship originallty means 73RR versus a shadow ships 80RR.
and thats just one game, next game the other armageddon ship costs another 33RR for eg so thats 106RR compared to 80 for the shadowship. stop looking so short term and look at the long term picture.

 

[greenboy]

Should ships with hyper space mastery get the reduction in cost for inner system comets / jump gates ?

 

[Locutus9956]

Sorry hash but I have to agree that its if anything too easy for the shadows and vorlons to win by attrition. Jump in blow up one or two ships and withdraw before you lose anything. Rinse and repeat. Its easy to compare the repair costs for one game and write them off as nothing but if you look at other races repair costs over SEVERAL TURNS. and add on top of that the amount they pay in replacing ships THEY lose the Shadows and Vorlons are suddenly not that badly off....

 

[katadder]

and thats what the shadows did, the fact you can just fade out of a battle you are losing unlike anyone else who has to open jump points or flee for the table edge is also a huge advantage in favour of the shadows. the amount of enemy ships in our campaign i have killed whislt they ran, or have lost my own when i flee.

 

[Hash]

and thats what the shadows did, the fact you can just fade out of a battle you are losing unlike anyone else who has to open jump points or flee for the table edge is also a huge advantage in favour of the shadows. the amount of enemy ships in our campaign i have killed whislt they ran, or have lost my own when i flee.

Maybe - it still bugs me, especially the fighters - the 10RR for a flight of them seems way harsh

Btw that was worst case for one game - how many campaign ships have you had survive on 1 hit to be repaired?

 

[Jetbaker]

perhaps I am miss reading but are you saying Shadows can just fade out of a battle if so where does it state that

Thanks

 

[katadder]

under hyperspace mastery, but not as good as i originally thought, they still have to wait a turn after initiating jump point.

 

[Jetbaker]

gotcha that is what I thought as well thanks

 

[Triggy]

But they still can time the jump to be at about 25% of their damage every time and keep almost every ship in the fleet undamaged in the long run...it's not that hard with practice.

 

[katadder]

and cant get the no SA crit against them that always appears whenever someone trys to open a jump point to flee

 

[Triggy]

and cant get the no SA crit against them that always appears whenever someone trys to open a jump point to flee

Which is why they can reliably wait until near death before jumping out. As you say, this is a huge advantage in a fleet with low numbers of ships in a battle.

 

[Jetbaker]

OK so is what you are saying that 1 shadow ship can do the phase or jump out SA and all the ships benefit from it. Maybe I am just to tired but that is what I am getting from the reading explain it to me if I am wrong if you would please.

 

[Chernobyl]

the "Full power until dead" bit on the vorlons and shadows has always irked me...when a ship can't take crits there's no reduction in hitting power or maneuverability until it DIES.

Something for 2e, I'd like to see, is a half way threshhold - when organic ships are below half strength, weapon AD and speed are cut in half, rounding down...

Chern

 

[Triggy]

the "Full power until dead" bit on the vorlons and shadows has always irked me...when a ship can't take crits there's no reduction in hitting power or maneuverability until it DIES.

Something for 2e, I'd like to see, is a half way threshhold - when organic ships are below half strength, weapon AD and speed are cut in half, rounding down...

Chern

Don't worry, they will lose effectiveness as they take damage in 2nd ed.

 

[Hash]

and cant get the no SA crit against them that always appears whenever someone trys to open a jump point to flee

Which is why they can reliably wait until near death before jumping out. As you say, this is a huge advantage in a fleet with low numbers of ships in a battle.

Hmm...I seem at odds with the vast majority here but define near death?

If a Shadow is near death (<25% of hits) one turn of fire from the enemy is usually more than enough to ensure they're not jumping anywhere...they can't shoot when they initiate jump point and can only move at half speed.

I see what you're saying but after several dozen battle with Shadows at various PLs, I've always found it far more advantageous to simply use the SM ability to move at double speed and run....I think in about 40 odd battles only one has jumping proved better than running...and that was in an asteroid field!

I'm not that bugged about paying double for the ships to be honest, it's the fighters that get me. As a Shadow player I recognise how vulnerable the ships are to fighters and want to use mine effectively...only the most effective tactic is to use them to stall the enemy and to tie up enemy fighters (for a turn)...only you can't keep doing that in a campaign when they cost double!

I played Shadows in our last campaign and found the only effective strategy was to ignore the scenario and try to kill enemy ships without losing anything...it works ok IF you get the right scenario but more often that not it ended up in a loss for me...ok you can blame it on my tactics but I don't think I'm an awful player...

EDIT: I should add I was usually successful in not losing any ships and doing the opponents damage but since they get so many point for taking STs this didn't help me that much

 

[Locutus9956]

Well dont forget that shadow ships can replenish their fighter losses for free by returning to base for a turn......

That said I do think independant fighter wings are perhaps a tad harsh in terms of cost on the shadows but the point is sitll that the shadow fleet, even at campaign level has it much harder at low PLs.

/Shrug.

 

[Hash]

...I do think independant fighter wings are perhaps a tad harsh in terms of cost on the shadows...

See with a little selective quoting, even Locutus supports the campaign! Reduce Shadow Fighters to 5RR per wing! (either that or give 'em 6 flights per patrol choice )

 

[katadder]

lol they are better than 1 WS fighter for 10RR

 

[Hash]

lol they are better than 1 WS fighter for 10RR

True, but be fair, only a madman (or an admiral that like to flash his wallet) would buy 'em as a Skirmish choice

Especially when you can get a WS Carrier that has the benefit of Fleet Carrier and can generate them so you get replacements for free! (well 2 a turn up to fill the hanger bays).