Shadows, Vorlons and Ducks
- Thread starter Howarth
- Start date
Morgoth
Mongoose
I agree, make the shadows and vorlons hard again. After all their ships are the supposed pinnacle of technology, and when you watch the series they devastate all opponents with ease. For example, the shadows wiped out a whole load of narn ships with ease and it takes fire from a lot of ships to kill one. Make the ancient races tough again!! :twisted:
I don't mind them being tough as long as they do pay for it... The re-stattingt hat annoys me is GW's policy of making stuff tough 'because it should be' then cheap 'because it should be common in the army'...
I'm still new meat, but the idea of adding an Apocalypse level seemed interesting, too.
I'm still new meat, but the idea of adding an Apocalypse level seemed interesting, too.
blackphoenix
Mongoose
Bump the stats, if they flee to hyperspace you get VP as if they were destroyed and if they are destroyed then you get 2x the VP.
Sure this may intially suck, but like I said, bump the stats and see. I mean have you really ever see a Shadow/Vorlon vessel flee from anything?
Sure this may intially suck, but like I said, bump the stats and see. I mean have you really ever see a Shadow/Vorlon vessel flee from anything?
The big shadow and vorlon ships should be nasty - more than able to kill a couple of battle sized ships of any other race with ease and there should be no way any single war level ship from the younger races should be able to take a shadow or vorlon war level ship one on one.
Having the smaller shadow and vorlon ships closer toa fair fight seems reasonable. Ivanova's white star dealt with the shadow scout in one episode without too much problem so that one was obviously not very powerful. Raid level seems fair for it, and I don't think we see enough of smaller vorlon ships fighting to make more than educated guesses as to their power. So having the vorlon transport and destroyer have similar power levels to to other raid and skirmish ships could be justified - Kosh's transport looks pretty small in the series - I envisage it being much smaller than the sizes given in the game for most skirmish ships. Having it equally powerful if it is in reality a much smaller vessel seems fair.
However real shadow ships and by implication the bigger vorlons, should be a step beyond anything the other races can take on in a fair fight. Apocalypse level sounds reasonable. Give me a shadow ship that is a fair fight for 2 sharlins; an Octurian, a Primus and some supports; or a whole flight of WhiteStars. Such a ship would be usable at war or battle level and would feel closer to the ships in the series.
I see the vorlons and shadows as races for special scenarios and one off games, not as a players main race or for campaigns, so there is no need to try and keep them balanced as there is with the more regular races.
Having the smaller shadow and vorlon ships closer toa fair fight seems reasonable. Ivanova's white star dealt with the shadow scout in one episode without too much problem so that one was obviously not very powerful. Raid level seems fair for it, and I don't think we see enough of smaller vorlon ships fighting to make more than educated guesses as to their power. So having the vorlon transport and destroyer have similar power levels to to other raid and skirmish ships could be justified - Kosh's transport looks pretty small in the series - I envisage it being much smaller than the sizes given in the game for most skirmish ships. Having it equally powerful if it is in reality a much smaller vessel seems fair.
However real shadow ships and by implication the bigger vorlons, should be a step beyond anything the other races can take on in a fair fight. Apocalypse level sounds reasonable. Give me a shadow ship that is a fair fight for 2 sharlins; an Octurian, a Primus and some supports; or a whole flight of WhiteStars. Such a ship would be usable at war or battle level and would feel closer to the ships in the series.
I see the vorlons and shadows as races for special scenarios and one off games, not as a players main race or for campaigns, so there is no need to try and keep them balanced as there is with the more regular races.
Howarth
Mongoose
Hear hear ( this is where I shoot myself in the foot and will probably have LBH jumping up and down with excitment) just when does a Victory class destroyer engage a shadow vessel ?
What im trying to get at is timelines. Shouldnt the Vorlons and shadows not be available after a certain date ?
Quack Quack quacky quack quack
(the great Duck agrees)
Digging out the big wooden spoon for all the stirring to come up
As I recall SFOS makes both races unusable after 2261 (don't have the book with me so only 99%) sure on the year but that would be right for the series.
A "realistic" shadow or larger Vorlon ship should be capable of taking any younger race war ship apart. Even the "advanced", post 2261ish designs - warlock, victory, sharkaan (and maybe Tertius ?). These are developments of their races earlier ideas, somethimes including bits of vorlon or shadow technology. However you do not get a first one class ship by adding a few bits of half understood elder race tech to what is still basically a younger race design.
The concept of a balanced first one fleet is fundamentally flawed. A fair war level game with 2 Shadow ships, a scout and some fighters vs 4 white stars and 3-4 war points of mixed league feels right given what we see on screen. To do this you need a genuine "apocalypse" level shadow. Now exactly what that is remains another question. 300-400 hull and accurate resored to the weapons would be a start.
A "realistic" shadow or larger Vorlon ship should be capable of taking any younger race war ship apart. Even the "advanced", post 2261ish designs - warlock, victory, sharkaan (and maybe Tertius ?). These are developments of their races earlier ideas, somethimes including bits of vorlon or shadow technology. However you do not get a first one class ship by adding a few bits of half understood elder race tech to what is still basically a younger race design.
The concept of a balanced first one fleet is fundamentally flawed. A fair war level game with 2 Shadow ships, a scout and some fighters vs 4 white stars and 3-4 war points of mixed league feels right given what we see on screen. To do this you need a genuine "apocalypse" level shadow. Now exactly what that is remains another question. 300-400 hull and accurate resored to the weapons would be a start.
Howarth said:
They are listed as "Until 2261" or similar in their in-service date info.
I disagree that they should be for special scenarios only. Some people want to play the bad guys, after all... The Shadows fill this role for many. (Ys, we can argue that neither is particularly 'good' but the shadows tend to be a bit more malevolent...)
Nothing wrong with playing the bad guys.
However the shadow fleet is never going to be that interesting. For one off games having a few shadow ships is fine and if that is how people play most of their gmes shadows should work. Having a couple of hyper powerful ships outnumbered 5-1 would make for games of a different feel.
As it is now the shadows seem like little fun.
However the shadow fleet is never going to be that interesting. For one off games having a few shadow ships is fine and if that is how people play most of their gmes shadows should work. Having a couple of hyper powerful ships outnumbered 5-1 would make for games of a different feel.
As it is now the shadows seem like little fun.
Maksim-Smelchak
Mongoose
The Shadows seem like little fun...
Hi L.,
I agree with you. Playing the Shadows is little fun. You have to think that you stand a chance of winning or at least inflicting a little hurt on the enemey and the current Shadows don't measure up.
I'm already at the point of thinking that Shadow play is joyless in current state.
I've been playing a campaign game with Shadows and I'm very disappointed with how knleenex-like the Shadows are. I don't blame the guys I play with. They're great, but the game has a serious hole in it concerning Ancients fleets. If I'd only played the game once, I'd think it was me, but I've played the game a number of times now and I'm seeing that others are experiencing the same problem with pathetic Shadows.
I don't want the Shadows to become over the top, but I'd like them to be at least competitive with other B-5 fleets.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Lagavulin said:
Hi L.,
I agree with you. Playing the Shadows is little fun. You have to think that you stand a chance of winning or at least inflicting a little hurt on the enemey and the current Shadows don't measure up.
I'm already at the point of thinking that Shadow play is joyless in current state.
I've been playing a campaign game with Shadows and I'm very disappointed with how knleenex-like the Shadows are. I don't blame the guys I play with. They're great, but the game has a serious hole in it concerning Ancients fleets. If I'd only played the game once, I'd think it was me, but I've played the game a number of times now and I'm seeing that others are experiencing the same problem with pathetic Shadows.
I don't want the Shadows to become over the top, but I'd like them to be at least competitive with other B-5 fleets.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Right Hand of God
Mongoose
Something has to be done with the Shadows and Vorlons, if not from a game point of view then just from a sensible management point of view. I think you would be hard pressed to find anybody on the forums who would reccommend that anybody purchase either of these fleets. And what is the point of having two fleets that nobody would reccomend you spend your money on?
That's a shame but it does show that they have been broken under SFoS.
Shadows and Vorlons are in many respects the essenc e of B5 as much as EA, Minbari and the others. They are the begining and the end, the Alpha and Omega. But boy do they suck now.
Who are you? I'm a player of one of the best games ever
What do you want? I want a Vorlon and Shadow fleet that scare the crap out of people not reduce them to giggles and pity
That's a shame but it does show that they have been broken under SFoS.
Shadows and Vorlons are in many respects the essenc e of B5 as much as EA, Minbari and the others. They are the begining and the end, the Alpha and Omega. But boy do they suck now.
Who are you? I'm a player of one of the best games ever
What do you want? I want a Vorlon and Shadow fleet that scare the crap out of people not reduce them to giggles and pity
Maksim-Smelchak
Mongoose
Right Hand of God said:
Hi R-HoG,
I tend to agree with you although I'm trying to keep a positive light on this issue, which I think can be fixed. I really understand what you are saying though.
If the rules don't change somewhat then I will now be the proud owner of a Shadow fleet that looks nice, but is not worth playing in SFOS.
In that case, I'll either leave SFOS altogether or possibly buy the Vree fleet which I'll use in kaiju / giant monster city-stomp'in games as flying saucers.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Pauly_D
Mongoose
Gungnir said:I say make them nasty, however they still need to be balanced.
Something like 1 Shadow Ship should be the equal of 2 - 3 War level ships and cost that many fleet allocation points
I may just have to try and make up some stats :twisted:
yes we need Priority level Armageddon, also might be able to put in Shadow and Vorlon Dreadnoughts and Vorlon Planet Killer in there somewhere
so: assuming we get a PL: armaggeddon, what would be the point breakdown.
at war PL, costs 2 points.
at battle PL, costs 4 points.
can't be taken at raid or lower.
I don't think an engagement should be fought at PL:armaggeddon, its merely a step up from a war PL ship.
ok, it becomes as powerful as it ought to be, but you even further restrict scenarios it can be played in.
Chern
at war PL, costs 2 points.
at battle PL, costs 4 points.
can't be taken at raid or lower.
I don't think an engagement should be fought at PL:armaggeddon, its merely a step up from a war PL ship.
ok, it becomes as powerful as it ought to be, but you even further restrict scenarios it can be played in.
Chern
herdleader
Mongoose
I would have to agree that the Shadows and the Vorlons are not very impressive right now. A Shadow ship should be able to disect a G'Quan with one shot like we see in the show. They should be killing at least one good sized younger race ship with every shot. Make the big boys nasty with a special PL all their own. A War level ship from the EA, Minbari, Narn, etc. should not have an equal chance of taking down a major Shadow/Vorlon battleship. You also need to adjust the victory conditions for the younger races (how long did you live this time?) to give them a chance to win the game. While you're at it, the younger races should be able to buy telepaths to man their ships. Maybe this would "cost" a Patrol level point. This would enable you to field telepaths in a one on game as well as in a campaign.
