Shadows & Vorlons - 2nd Ed Treatment?

[Traveller-61]

Now that the Technomages have had the boost up to 2nd ed standards how about the same for the forces behind the great game - the Shadows & Vorlons?

I know that they are not going to be as popular as Technomages as PCs, but the sourcebook was a great source for NPCs and more, and I'd like to be able to use if fully with 2ed rules.

So any news????

DW

 

[Shadow Queen]

Now that the Technomages have had the boost up to 2nd ed standards how about the same for the forces behind the great game - the Shadows & Vorlons?

I know that they are not going to be as popular as Technomages as PCs, but the sourcebook was a great source for NPCs and more, and I'd like to be able to use if fully with 2ed rules.

So any news????

DW

I would not call the Technomages a boost, more like a joke (sorry Neo) for it messes up the Technomages classes and the ship i think theVorlons and the Shadows dont need to be boosted

 

[Traveller-61]

I think you misunderstand me Shadow Queen - I don't want to make them any more powerful :shock: - just to have their stats, abilites, tables etc redone for 2nd edition. For example I think Kosh was about a 15th level Vorlon - how will that work now 10th is max?

DW

 

[James McMurray]

He could have 5 levels in the PrC "Vorlon Higher than 10th Level."

Why do you need stats for Vorlons and Shadows? I'd think you'd need a really high level campaign for the PCs to get into a situation where the stats mattered.

Not to say I'm not curious about their stats of course.

 

[Shadow Queen]

to me they are fine as they are

 

[Neo]

I would not call the Technomages a boost, more like a joke (sorry Neo) for it messes up the Technomages classes and the ship i think theVorlons and the Shadows dont need to be boosted

I think you misunderstand what the purpose of the Techno Mage article was SQ.. One of the main facets of B5 2e was the intent to encourage multi classing for ALL classes, hence why all base classes had 10 levels. As it was Technomages was the only base class that didnt return in that format, not by design but by omission... and that is now rectified.

As it is the class isnt reinvented or changed it is still as it was. The need to multiclass is obviously more apparent but thier ability to multiclass has always been there even in 1st ed... that is no different now then it was previously. The main new information is the inclusion of class defence, influence and the new influence category, updated skills list etc.. but beyodn this it is identical to how it was.

So when you say things like its a joke without actually explaining your stance, it isnt insulting to me (although I do find it an odd reaction considering the new technomage format works fine), it is actually insulting to the original TM author. Because as far as the base class goes as noted above, only the format was changed (odd tweak and update) not the content.

So by all means express an opinion (though always civilly, were all friends here afterall). But in order to help "us" understand your position, please, also explain what you didn't like about it, otherwise it just comes across as being negative for the sake of it, and I know your not like that

*****
On the separate issue of the Shadows and Vorlons, although it was great to see thier benefits etc.. I have never used statistics for either in play, they are more story tools than actual combatants that need statting. They are one of the few things I'd've been happy to have an entirely fluff and game advice type book for (with the exception of the inclusion of ship and minion stats etc.. of course). As such for a 2nd ed approach imo it isnt really a mechanical approach they need.

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

I have to agree. I have a hard time envisioning a time when I'd need to have stats for a Vorlon or Shadow. So my advice is to use the 1e sourcebook for info and don't worry about mechanical stats for the First Ones.

That being said, I personally don't see any reason that they couldn't be used in 2e as they are. They can't exactly multiclass, so there probably isn't an issue with advancement beyond 10th level. Why you'd ever need to worry about advancement is outside the scope of this topic, I believe.

 

[Traveller-61]

At the risk of disagreeing with you, Neo and Gabriel_Luna, I like having the stats of the First Ones; after your players are embroiled in their plans eventually they might want to take on the masters rather than the servants (and probably crushed into a pulp in the process, but that's another story entirely :twisted: )

I have an idea for a society created by a Vorlon who is on the borderline of sanity. The tables in the guide gives me a good idea for how much he can do without the others (or the Shadows) taking notice. Of course a lot of the abilities are level based so a definitive ruling on how they stand in the 2ed would be very useful.

And anyway all 1ed supplements were to be totally compatible with 2ed so I just want a patch for my favourite one (so far)

DW

 

[Neo]

At the risk of disagreeing with you, Neo and Gabriel_Luna, I like having the stats of the First Ones; after your players are embroiled in their plans eventually they might want to take on the masters rather than the servants (and probably crushed into a pulp in the process, but that's another story entirely :twisted: )

I have an idea for a society created by a Vorlon who is on the borderline of sanity. The tables in the guide gives me a good idea for how much he can do without the others (or the Shadows) taking notice. Of course a lot of the abilities are level based so a definitive ruling on how they stand in the 2ed would be very useful.

And anyway all 1ed supplements were to be totally compatible with 2ed so I just want a patch for my favourite one (so far)

DW

Hmm I think G'Kar says it best in the series (series 1) when he gives his little speech about how they view the other races like ants, we are practically below thier notice, not even on the same level in any regard.

You dont need stats for GOD in order to know he is all powerful in comparison, and to use him in play, nor to know that if he wishes to step on you, their isnt a great deal you can do about it.. he is a story tool, he doesnt need hit points and attack bonuses. And it is no different with the first ones, really because its that sort of comparative level were looking at

Its nice to have mechanics for thier tech and vessels and stats for thier minions who are on our level, but the first ones themselves dont really need statting as opposed to them as a whole simply being explained, and thier limitations given.

 

[Mongoose Gar]

I have an idea for a society created by a Vorlon who is on the borderline of sanity. The tables in the guide gives me a good idea for how much he can do without the others (or the Shadows) taking notice. Of course a lot of the abilities are level based so a definitive ruling on how they stand in the 2ed would be very useful.

As far as level is concerned, use it as it is.

While we're on the topic - the "10 levels per class" thing isn't a hard and fast rule in B52E. The change was made to the base classes like Officer and Diplomat and Telepath and so on because, from what we saw in the field, few campaigns were getting to 15th/16th level. Therefore, I compressed the 'interesting' bits of those classes down to ten levels, so more funky abilities would see play. It was never intended to be a rule that you can't stick with Officer, or Telepath, or Vorlon or Technomage for that matter, past level 10. You just don't get any more funky abilities in most of the classes. (There is a strong argument for re-expanding telepath to 20 levels, and I might do just that in S&P at some point.)

 

[Traveller-61]

Mongoose Gar - much obliged for the info I can go and create my insane Vorlon now :lol:

Neo - I'll think that we will have to agree to differ on First One stats
I do agree completely with what you say about them being a story tool, and in the normal course of a game I cannot see me needing the stats. But they are useful in planning what the FO could do, what resources thay can call on etc . And of course if the PCs finally do challenge them directly, it is nice to know how well the FO can squish them :twisted:

DW

 

[seawolf69]

I am more than happy with the Technomage class rework as well as the prestige class rework.

I am also more than happy to NOT have the Shadows and Vorlons reworked at all. I happen to agree with Neo. What do you need stats for Gods for?

I could have gone along way without a single book on the Shadows or Vorlons.

Ron

 

[Shadow Queen]

Has a nice Adventure in it

 

[Mage Ash]

The Shadow and Vorlon book is one of the all-time favorite books, not just within the Babylon 5 rpg world but across the entiure rpg world. The write up is both entertainign and useful from both a rules and a fluff perspective.

With that said, I would definitly love an update to the Vorlon and Shadows. Maybe, following in the footsteps of the Techno-Mage update, they could do it in an article in the magazine. That way those that want it can have it and those that do not do not need to get it - its a win, win situation.

On a slightly off-topic but related concept, one day I hope to see a book detailing the might and power of the other First Ones. That would be extremely mighty.

 

[Traveller-61]

Mage Ash - you are bang on about the book I definitiely think that it is one of Mongoose's best.
If you look further up the posts you will see that Mongoose Gar has said to keep using it as is for 2nd Ed. Seems the 10th level max is more a guideline than a hard and fast rule.

Seawolf69 - as Mage Ash said there is a lot more in the book than just the stats; it gives a real insight into the motives, plans and abilities of the Vorlons and Shadows; all very good stuff to help a GM portray them properly and get an idea of the sheer scale of their schemes.

"What do you need stats for Gods for?" - when your players want to kill one :twisted:
After all it did happen in the show and some players always want to copy their heroes (the more suicidal ones in this case though).

DW

PS. Please add me to the "I want a book on the other First Ones" list :lol:

 

[James McMurray]

I'd love a book about the Vorlons and Shadows. But if it has stats in it I'll do like I do with D&D's Gods: ignore them.

 

[Hellhawk]

Then why not just buy Darkness & Light? It's first edition, but if you ar going to ignore the stats anyway...

Rainer

 

[Shadow Queen]

good book to be messed up