Seeking opinions about Gloranthan Rune Magic acquisition...

[Cleombrotus]

"If, as per RQ3, spell teaching works by summoning a Cult spirit, then it seems reasonable to say that a cult can only (safely) teach it's own spells - If you go to Humakt to learn "Bladesharp" the priest will get a spirit that is happy to teach the spell to those deemed worthy by the cult. If you go to Ernalda to learn the same spell the priestess will not necessarily get a friendly spirit and you may be in much more danger ."

This, from Duncan Disorderly, I really like. It's a simple game mechanic that adds actual Gloranthan flavour that is easily understandable to a player, and highlights something very Runequest, i.e spirit combat. It doesn't require a list or a new rule, just a bit of background flavour and description. It makes people think about the process and the result. Cool.

With reference to Simon's replies, I agree about the rationales for joining cults. In Glorantha there is a clear element of practicality in any choice. This doesn't rule out piety, of course, but that notion of practical and material benefit is certainly there.

I always loved the way that Glorantha, rather than running from the implications of what adventurers and mercenaries mean for a particular society, actively embraced it. On reflection, I probably haven't made enough of what the majority of Gloranthans would think about these bunches of parasitic thugs roaming around with no responsibilities. I think that my characters might get chased out of town by a mob of angry Tarshite hillsmen wielding torches and pitchforks in the next part of my game. Or the locals might resent the party making use of a particular village's Uleria temple next time they hit town with that adventurer attitude. Opportunity missed thus far, I feel.

The idea of what became disparagingly known as 'power gaming' was written into the introduction to Glorantha. I'm paraphrasing obviously, but it talked of "thousands of individuals travelled to Dragon Pass to build up their skills in order to take their place in the Hero Wars..."
Now I'm not interested in that whole "I'm a role player, not a roll player bollocks" but I personally have always enjoyed numeric character development. I like to think deeply about my character's background and motivation (feel free to read my website and see), but I love Glorantha for being the first world to acknowledge the appeal of what it is to be a rootless wanderer and freebooter. This is the stuff of Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. This is why I love Runequest.

Having caught myself in mid flow, I realise I may be guilty of going wildly off topic and having no way to get back on, and yet resenting deleting the post as irrelevant. Never mind, please excuse me the editorial... :?

 

[frogspawner]

Having re-evaluated certain things, I can find myself erring toward the possibility of going full stop with the rules.
My annoyance with Rune integration was based somewhat on the fact that my game is ongoing... I envisage something far more integral to a character's soul, not just a Thanatari walking round with fluffy dice on his garotte grip marked up with the chaos rune...

OK, as I've said elsewhere before, if you want to use the MRQ rules (and keep Your Glorantha similar to previous incarnations) I recommend the following interpretations:

- Cult membership allows spell learning (without the need for rune integration): Lay members can get their cult's spells; Initiates+ can learn spells of associated cults too. (Use whatever you're used to for casting: a straight 95%, or POWx5, or even Theology/Runecasting skills).
- Runes are crystals of godly blood and are very rare (even more so in 3rd Age than 2nd). When attuned, Runes are absorbed into the host's bloodstream, and re-crystalize/re-emerge only upon their death.
- Normally, though, Runes are sacrificed ('returned') to the gods - and disappear permanently, but sometimes Rune-Lords/Priests may integrate one. Only Rune Masters are deemed powerful enough to do so because attuned Runes can be located via Divination by related cults - who will often send hit-squads on "Rune Quests" to get them....

Extreme Rune-rarity should explain why existing characters hadn't come across them before. And is the 'absorb holy blood' idea sufficiently more soul-ful than fluffy dice?

 

[Cleombrotus]

Yeah, I think that this is just about right. We were going in the direction of Rune cults kind of existing as a rune-franchise (I know that sounds excessively crass, but you know what I mean). By virtue of joining a cult, they have effectively already done the integrating and pass it on to you through your joining ceremony."We've done it so you don't have to". It's like the Gloranthan equivalent of Subway sending their franchisees loads of branded napkins and paper cups...

Like the idea about crystals in the blood and recrystalisation. Am going to be using that.

Rune sacrifice makes good sense too, as do the consequences of personally integrating runes only to have a loud knock at the door one morning and a bunch of Humakti there saying, "We believe you have something that belongs to us..."

I think that suits Third Age Glorantha very well...

Disclaimer: I have never and would never condone the inclusion of fluffy dice in a game of Runequest. Unless for dramatic purposes it enhanced pathos and/or gravitas in a particular situation.

 

[durulz]

[The idea of what became disparagingly known as 'power gaming' was written into the introduction to Glorantha.]

Disparaged, though, for good reason. 'Power Gaming' is OK, as long as the other players (and referee!) is on it as well. If one player is power gaming and no one else is then it can get tiresome.
I don't think mention of a band of wanderers out for themselves is an excuse for 'power gaming' (or even a description of it). Still, each to their own. Power gamers will always have a difficult time of it in my games since power gaming relies on an adherence to the rules. And I'm more than happy to abandon what the rules say if I believe they get in the way of a good game.

 

[durulz]

Still, Runequest does have a kind of 'power gaming' to it since it has a definite objective (become runelord/priest/shaman/adept etc). And I think that direct focus is what makes it such a good game. Although I've always felt the game breaks down at these higher levels (probably why the rules (good ol' RQ2) suggested retiring rune-level characters). But that focus can really help drive play and when characters start getting close to the longed-for 90% levels you can see the players milk any opportunity to test their skills for those all important experience rolls. That's all part of the game and is, of course, an aspect of power gaming (and the kind of power gaming I suspect - know - that Cleombrotus is referring to).
It will be interesting to see how the new rules affect skill acquisition since there are no more 'ticks' to skills - just improvement rolls that can be used where they are wanted. Mind you, as a referee I would only allow players to develop skills that had been exercised during play. Still, it doesn't say that in the rules so feasibly the more tedious kind of power gamer will quote rules, and according to the rules there's nothing to stop someone spending improvement rolls on learning a few Lore skills even though the scenario has been all hack hack hack.
Ho-hum.

 

[Cleombrotus]

This is one of those points that has surely been talked to death by roleplayers the world over. I feel I should clarify my point. Power gaming, and we've all met people who exemplify it, is tedious, not to mention hilarious when you can see it going on and the person doing it is unaware that you can see them doing it...
However, having a belief in rules consistency and finding enjoyment in watching your character become successful and powerful in game terms is not inherently power gaming as far as I'm concerned. It's about seeing the effort you put in rewarded in terms of the game, and that's a good thing, in my opinion.
I've played in lots of rpg systems (or read them but never bothered to play them) where the idea that it's all about character and role playing is an argument used to cover up a nonsensical or shoddy set of rules. The character development side of Runequest draws people into the game and makes them care about their characters. It's the combination of rules and world that is better than any other combination that I have found that makes Runequest so compulsive and successful.
You only have to look at RQM to see that it's been developed to allow extremes of high level gaming, and I think (I was going to say, "I know") that this will motivate players (the ones who bother to read the rules, anyway) to try to achieve more with their characters. Pro-active players who like their characters are the biggest single asset to any roleplaying game in any genre.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Since this is not a hugely interesting topic for me, I'll change the emphasis. A runequest anecdote. When I first started playing RQ we had a guy in our club (which had about thirty regular members - ahh the 'eighties) who exemplified power gaming. I was naive at the start, and had no idea what he was up to. Most of the other players were adults and I was a teenager and looked up to them.
This guy only used to do anything with his character to acquire stuff. Experience ticks, magic, 'power'. If an action could be tied to a RQ skill, he'd do it. He'd climb any wall or rock, he'd jump across any gap that presented itself. He'd evaluate absolutely everything, and would sneak and hide just for the sheer fun of it. His characters were all armoured identically, in what came to be known as 'the magical armour of ping', because of the sound that any weapon, wielded by almost any creature would make when it hit him.
The GM would say, "He's hit you for twelve points of damage" and there would be a comedy movement of the lips as he pretended to do some mammoth calculation (you just read the number 'five' off your sheet, dude) and would then, with absolutely no shame, declare "ping!"
As a GM, you would have to create subplots for him that would in no way effect the outcome of your campaign, such was the consistent level of cheating and abuse. He would buy a rules system and then deny it outright, but would suddenly quote or use some really obscure rule to his benefit...
We all loved having him in our games - you can't fake talent like that...

 

[durulz]

You forgot about the Cocktail Stick of Death (a nasty wee beasty the same goit kept hidden about his person and upon which he would cast Bladesharp 6).

 

[soltakss]

Since this is not a hugely interesting topic for me, I'll change the emphasis. A runequest anecdote. When I first started playing RQ we had a guy in our club (which had about thirty regular members - ahh the 'eighties) who exemplified power gaming. I was naive at the start, and had no idea what he was up to. Most of the other players were adults and I was a teenager and looked up to them.
This guy only used to do anything with his character to acquire stuff. Experience ticks, magic, 'power'. If an action could be tied to a RQ skill, he'd do it. He'd climb any wall or rock, he'd jump across any gap that presented itself. He'd evaluate absolutely everything, and would sneak and hide just for the sheer fun of it. His characters were all armoured identically, in what came to be known as 'the magical armour of ping', because of the sound that any weapon, wielded by almost any creature would make when it hit him.
The GM would say, "He's hit you for twelve points of damage" and there would be a comedy movement of the lips as he pretended to do some mammoth calculation (you just read the number 'five' off your sheet, dude) and would then, with absolutely no shame, declare "ping!"

Hmmm, where did you do your gaming in the eighties?

"Ping" used to be one of the best GM-baiting moves. You'd be in a combat with a beastie that dealt out moderate but not severe damage, and you cast Protection4 and Shield 4 on your iron armour. The GM would roll the attack and ask, suspisiously, if (whatever the maximum possible damage) could penetrate armour. With a perfectly straight face, you'd reply "yes" and let him roll the damage, add it up, add the spell enhancements, roll location only for you to sit back with a smug, satisfied and contented grin on your face and say "Ping!!!", knowing that you had a couple of points more than the max everywhere.

Another good GM-baiting move was to let him count Strike Ranks up (in RQM it would be down), then when he had passed yours and was just about to do an NPC action, you'd say "Sorry, 6? That's me" and then jump in. It worked best if he had said "6? 6? 6 anyone?" while looking directly at you before moving on to 7, thenyou'd say "Did you say 6?". Well, we liked it.

As a GM, you would have to create subplots for him that would in no way effect the outcome of your campaign, such was the consistent level of cheating and abuse. He would buy a rules system and then deny it outright, but would suddenly quote or use some really obscure rule to his benefit...

Buying the scenario and reading might might be considered cheating, but buying a rules system?

We all loved having him in our games - you can't fake talent like that...

We had one who'd turn up to the start of a game, stay for a couple of hours, get called away, turn up at the end and roll best on the Treasure Roll. He'd get the best stuff, then roll his experience and always succeed, then go home. He had a pair of percentile dice that were so worn that nobody could read them. He'd always critical in the most opportune moments and, when challenged, imvite you to look at the dice, knowing full well that nobody could read them. If you ever did hold them up to the light at a certain angle so that the numbers became magically visible, they ALWAYS agreed with what he claimed to have rolled.

 

[Trifletraxor]

I once had a magic D6. It almost always rolled 4, 5 or 6 when I rolled damage.

My players stole it and buried it somewhere!

SGL.

 

[Cleombrotus]

I run the risk of convicting myself with regards to my last post, but I was part of the late, and oft lamented Maidstone Gamer's Guild, which, as a life long roleplayer I have no hestiation in recommending as the best roleplaying years of my life if only for the joyful innocence of trying to play tunnels & trolls seriously. It was totally a runequest club, and i felt so overawed and outclassed as a mere d&d player the first time i attended. I sat back and listened to the conversations going on (i was 14 by the way), and came away from my first session convinced that Chalana Arroy was some kind of psychotic war god (not goddess). This may sound stupid, so i guess i was, but what are you gonna do? i was 14.
With regard to the last player who you insinuate may have just been canny. He was a player of mine when i introduced rolemaster and merp to the club, and with the same lack of shame used to straightfacedly declare open-ended rolls of the "276" variety with hilarious regularity.
when i said we all loved to have him in our games, it wasn't ironic. it wasn't malicious. when we packed out one of his fags with live match heads - that was malicious...

 

[Cleombrotus]

The way we played it in RQ3 was:
Cults taught spells to Friendly Cultists at Full Price, Associated Cultists as 3/4 Price and Cult Members at Half Price (or Free if the cult specified). Neutral or hostile cultists weren't generally taught spells.

Just so you know, we decided (this very night after four pints) to go down this route in our campaign, pretty much.

This is the sort of friday night conversation that erupts when 'the girls' go to the bar. Any girls who would actually rather have this conversation than go to the bar (a big ask, I know) see our email address...

Excerpt: " What are you two talking so animatedly about (sic)?" "Oh just cool stuff like how much cults sell magic for...will you be my girlfriend?" "yes, of course. I'll just join this exceptionally long queue. oh, sorry I didn't know I had to take a ticket..."