Rutarians

[katadder]

Do any centauri players use these as the swaps on their ships? or do they buy them seperately?
currently we are seeing a bit of debate on the rutarian, some people think it should be paid for, i'm of the oppinion it should be a straight swap like the t-bolt (but worse at dogfighting).
would like to see centauri players views on this fighter, is it worth it, does it ever get used? (apart from adiras that come with them)
and centauri opponents, have the centauri you played ever used the rutarian, is it overpowered or just right?

 

[tneva82]

i'm of the oppinion it should be a straight swap like the t-bolt (but worse at dogfighting).

When rutarian is superior or equal in EVERY aspect except for dodge(but in return have stealth as additional protection) no way in earth they should be free swaps...

"Here! Swap your fighters for superior fighters for free!"

Would be "nice" marketing plot from mongoose though. Everybody's sentri collections would be instantly invalidated as there would be no point to take sentris over rutarians...Everybody would need to replace all of their sentries with them...

Hmm...Why does that sound familiar practise from certain other company...

 

[Itkovian]

I've played against Rutarians several times, to be honest they seem to be a Jack-of-all-trades* fighter choice.
The stealth is not really much help, after all the best counter to a fighter is another fighter, and once they get in close enough to shoot it is easy enough to go through, they don't dogfight especially well so they die quickly to less expensive fighters, and horribly fast against things like Nials.
The Precise DD torp is nasty when it hits, but that isn't often.
My Centauri opponent tends to buy Raziks when he buys fighters at all. He has tried shielding his Rutarians with other fighters, but the end result is they die slightly more slowly.


*And master of none

 

[tneva82]

they don't dogfight especially

+2 not well? Not that many units out there...But on that regards neither does sentri dogfight well...Or starfury...

So basicly only Nials and centauri light fighter dogfight well...Hmmmm...

 

[Burger]

You should only be allowed to swap fighters for others which have the same number per wing when bought seperately. Eg Starfuries for TBolts, Sentri for Razik, Nial for Tishat, Frazi for Gorith.

A Rutarian has 2 flights per wing, whereas a Sentri has 4. Therefore a Rutarian is deemed by the rules to be twice as good as a Sentri. To swap one Sentri for one Rutarian would be unbalanced.

 

[Itkovian]

they don't dogfight especially

+2 not well? Not that many units out there...But on that regards neither does sentri dogfight well...Or starfury...

So basicly only Nials and centauri light fighter dogfight well...Hmmmm...

Or Whitestar fighters....

Perhaps I should have used exceptionally, point is that they are no better than the Sentri (Which you get 4 of per point) or the Starfury (3 Per point) Not sure that stealth really makes up for it. They are better than the T Bolt, by one point, which I suppose is a comparable fighter.

Dogfighting is pretty much irrelevant against the Narn who you will outclass with anything, assuming you survive the E-mine barrage of course

From my own experience of fighting them, they don't seem worth it. Not sure how you would regrade them though.

 

[tneva82]

point is that they are no better than the Sentri (Which you get 4 of per point) or the Starfury (3 Per point) Not sure that stealth really makes up for it.

No better at dogfighting but they have bigger punch.

What does sentri have to go for compared to rutarian? NOTHING!

If you give free swaps to sentri why would anybody take sentris over rutarians? Only reason would be fluff and to heck with shooting yourself to foot...

 

[Alexb83]

If that's going to be the case, then perhaps the 'value' of certain fighters (i.e. the number per wing) should be reassessed. Thunderbolts are 'worth' far more than Starfuries, IMO, as they have far greater firepower and tactical flexibility with little loss in terms of other functionality. Conversely, I don't think (for example) that Nials should cost 3 times as much as Starfuries, as they aren't 3 times as good (arguably, 3 starfuries is far better than 1 nial - afterburner, 1 better in combined dogfight and so on.)
And I've yet to see a game where a player hasn't completely swapped 'furies in for 'bolts (similarly, I've seen games where Centauri players have gone with all Rutarians).

Also, the no. per wing needs to be related more closely to the no. gained free in any given ship (case in point WS fighters bought separately compared to those in the carrier, Nials/Tishats vs. the cost of those in the Morshin). ATM you're almost always better off taking the carrier, since you get discounted fighters and in a sense a 'free' ship.

 

[Burger]

This is being addressed in 2e.





(Just a guess...)

 

[Alexb83]

That seems to be the party line for all problems. Quite how it's going to be addressed? Hmph

Fighters are just a microcosm of the tradeoff issues with ships - there are so many variants which are either completely pointless (they gain little, but lose much more) or far too good (Kaliva anyone?). Same with the swapping for fighters.
The key could be: making fighters good at their specific role (so Tbolts should be strike bombers, starfuries the space superiority bird) and naff at other roles, meaning commanders must be more selective. As it is atm, Thunderbolts are just too good (and they have a niggling balance issue vs. Vorlons IMO which'll probably just get far worse if vorlons go back to the normal damage model).
Even the trade from Nials to Tishats is a bit slim, IMO (okay, you're slightly better at dogfighting, slightly worse at shooting - which is the right direction but is very slim difference between 2 great dogfighters, especially with Morshins available).

 

[Locutus9956]

Im having armageddon flashbacks here, I think the playtesting code of secrecy and the line 'its being adressed in....' is really starting to get on some people heres nerves......

Seriously though as it stands I actually dont think the old 'but T-Bolts can swap for Starfuries' line really holds that much water:

The T-Bolt is both slower and worse at dogfighting than the Starfury, this may seem like a very small price to pay for better hull and more weaponry but think about it for a minute.

That improved hull makes no difference if you die to enemy fighters (a fairly likely proposition) and whilst the T-Bolt DOES have missiles, its worth noting that the Starfury's basica cannons are twin linked, whilst the T-Bolts are not, on average I find that Starfuries can actually keep up with T-Bolts surprisingly well in damage thanks to this.

All in all I think people think of the T-Bolt as clearly supperior not because they are overating it, it is an excellent fighter, but rather that they are underestimating the effectiveness of the regular Starfury vs ships.

Now the Rutarian on the other hand is IDENTICAL to the Sentri in nearly every way except having stealth and greater firepower. Sure stealth wont help it in a dogfight but its a MASSIVE bonus when attacking ships.

Simply put comparing the two cases, I still field about half and half Furies and TBolts most of the time, if I was allowed to swap out Rutarians though I would NEVER field a Sentri. At all.

 

[Burger]

You guys noticed the "its being addressed in..." thing too then
Kinda hard not to really since its in virtually every thread these days!

 

[Alexb83]

Yes, it does grate somewhat when playtesters simply say 'talk to the hand'. Especially when we have previous experience of 'it's being dealt with' producing things like the Armageddon Saggitarius.

2AD Twinlinked simply doesn't equate to 2 AD + 2 AD AP (especially when the AP dice are out at 4 inches range).

Tbolts are problematic for multiple reasons: They're tougher, only marginally slower (especially when they have afterburners to boot) and do more damage than Starfuries. They're also as good as, if not better than, many races' basic fighters in dogfight (league, vorlons, shadows, narn, and so on), and where they're not as good, they often outnumber and usually reach parity.

I would call the 4 inch range vs. 2 inch charged energy pulse a big imbalance, myself. They still suffer vs. some ships' antifighter guns, but not too much - particle beams are often weak, so you'll need to be rolling 6s. Only Minbari really stand much chance of shooting them down effectively (and only if they survive getting swarmed) - and hardly any chance of escorting ships killing anything off unless you keep your fleet in a 1-inch daisy chain.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Fighters are just a microcosm of the tradeoff issues with ships - there are so many variants which are either completely pointless (they gain little, but lose much more) or far too good (Kaliva anyone?). Same with the swapping for fighters.

If you use the in-service dates you'll find that most of the better variants (Avioki Vs Kaliva and Starfury Vs T-Bolt for two) are only available after certain years and some of the seemingly poorer ones fill a hole in the fleet that a later ship will later fill. Which is pretty much the point of them.

 

[Alexb83]

In-service dates have absolutely no bearing on Tournaments, in my experience, and 'competetive' gaming is where all the balance issues really come to the fore (although TBH, there should either be across the board 'balance' between variants or we should just abandon the notion of uniform priority levels).

So the ol' argument of 'well, the Kaliva can only be used between years x and y' has no bearing. Fact is, it can be taken by a fleet in a tournament, irrespective of ISD. Where you can, why would you ever take ship x over ship y, where ship y costs the same and is simply better, and you're playing to win?

 

[Locutus9956]

Im sorry Alex but I just cant agree. No the twin linked doesnt equate to the 2 + 2 AP but my point is its not as big a difference as people think and in my oppinion IS ofset by the difference in dogfight values.

For the record I never had a problem with the old dogfight values (+0 and +1 respectively for the two EA fighters) but simply put they are a fair swap in my eyes, whereas the Rutarian is better than the sentri in EVERY WAY!

 

[tneva82]

and whilst the T-Bolt DOES have missiles, its worth noting that the Starfury's basica cannons are twin linked, whilst the T-Bolts are not, on average I find that Starfuries can actually keep up with T-Bolts surprisingly well in damage thanks to this.

Yep. Pretty much same effect as missiles vs hull 6(missiles have 3% better chance...), slightly better vs hull 5(5%) and from there starfuries reign supreme. So difference is more of the 2AD from the pulse cannon of thunderbolt. Not that much.

Sure stealth wont help it in a dogfight but its a MASSIVE bonus when attacking ships.

It might actually survive dogfighting enemy fighters to death near enemy capital ships with AF weapons...

Simply put comparing the two cases, I still field about half and half Furies and TBolts most of the time, if I was allowed to swap out Rutarians though I would NEVER field a Sentri. At all.

Seconded.

 

[Alexb83]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I dont personally think that a simple +1 in dogfight and 2 inches in move sets the Starfury apart at all, given the relative gains (hull, firepower) that the Thunderbolt has.

Combined dogfight value for 3 Thunderbolts: +3. For 3 starfuries: +4.
the worst opponent you could come up against is a Tishat or ISA Nial - and even then you can hold them in combat for 3 turns and take 3 chances for them to roll low.
Also, you can move 20 inches to get the hell away from dogfights, in the event that you lose initiative. Even if the enemy does get onto some of your fighters before they can fire at their intended target, chances are it'll only be 1/3 of them.

Singly tbolts simply aren't bad dogfighters (+0 is bad, IMO - and there are plenty of fighters with that which come in similar numbers for the points and dont have the 2+ dodge, hull 5, 4 inch range to boot).

 

[Locutus9956]

For the record, afterburners only add 50% speed when used by fighters, Tbolts can burn a max of 15" not 20"! That WOULD be broken! :shock:

 

[tneva82]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I dont personally think that a simple +1 in dogfight and 2 inches in move sets the Starfury apart at all, given the relative gains (hull, firepower) that the Thunderbolt has.

Well the hull doesn't help all that much against main fighter killer, the dogfights :wink:

Singly tbolts simply aren't bad dogfighters

No. But are more vulnerable in dogfights than starfuries.