Runes

[Rurik]

I keep seeing people hating the way Runes are used in MRQ and frankly I don't really see much of a problem with them. The only real issue is that retrofitting Rune Magic to existing Cults leads to some issues as traditional cult spells often have nothing to do with the Runic Associations of the God in question.

The way I see it they should be common, as Rune Magic is repeatedly referred to as the most common form of magic.

In practice I doubt people will be trying to integrate every rune they get their hands on - it just plain isn't practical. You lose a point of POW permanently, and POW is as hard as any other stat to increase in MRQ.

You pretty much have to pick a couple of runes to specialise in - you will spread your skill increases way too thin if you try to become proficient in more than 2-3 Runecasting skills.

Some Runic Powers may seem worth integrating for the bonus alone - but if you use the Runic Powers PDF and the expanded powers a person will not know which bonus they will get.

So really, integrating every single rune you get your hands on is not really a great idea. And as such, I think killing someone just for their integrated runes is an overstated problem. You can, however, really screw someone by holding their rune hostage. If you take their rune they cannot cast spells it is required for or easily unintegrate it and integrate another. :twisted:

 

[ninthcouncil]

Unfortunately my intention to run a Gloranthan campaign has had to go on hold for a while, so I won't be experimenting with the Rune problem in the near future.

Though I'm slightly more bothered by the Rune problem than you are, I'd tend to agree that, if they are to be used, they should be common rather than rare. This to a certain extent mitigates the economic problem and the problem with cult spells, as it should then be reasonably straightforward for cults to trade for unintegrated runes corresponding to the spells they teach, and then make a profit selling them on to worshippers.

The problem with murdering people for their integrated runes remains, however, unless the Runes are so common as to be virtually worthless. A solution might be to have the rune not become available again on the death of the owner, but to be lost. If you kill someone with strong claim to a runic affiliation (e.g. a Humakti Death Lord) then his corpse may manifest a Rune (in this case, Death and/or Truth), but you shouldn't expect to recover the Metal rune he integrated fifteen years ago when he learnt Bladesharp.

Just my 2 clacks - everyone seems to have their own variants on how to approach this issue.

 

[Halfbat]

Agree, I think.

On the face of it the Runes are a great idea and it lets the GM control the amount of magic in the campaign. Rune of Chaos has the idea of the Rune burning itself into a body in some way, which is certainly a sound idea as the "Rune Hostage" and "Kill him for his Rune" habits are a bit, ermmm.... well gruesome, frankly. Even a city-wandering or captured PC group can be stripped of their low-level magic too easily (I know, that's an opportunity for plot feeds, but it can be very hard on the PCs in the meantime unless you;re a very forgiving GM).

I think the real hiccup is the sheer number of skills which need to be learnt, but then I'm undoubtedly biased.

 

[Rurik]

OK, killing to take a rune can be seen as a problem. Though Honestly, a bit of gruesomeness is ok with me in my games.

Though there is the element of actual Role Playing and non-mechanical rewards/penalties as well. Surely killing a broo to take their runes is not frowned upon, and surrending to a broo in unwise in all cases - better to go down fighting.

But among more civilised folk (yeah, I am even including storm worshippers in with civilised folk) ransom has always been a part of Glorantha. If one surrenders it is dishonorable to kill them. A person who gains a reputation for killing those who surrender can expect to be treated in kind when a fight goes against them.

I plan on using Runes as written at first. If there is a problem with the necessity of killing someone to take their Runes then the fix is simply to make it easier to break integration or possible to integreate a rune that was integrated by another without killing them.

 

[Rurik]

This has all got me thinking about what Rune Integration actually is. I know not everyone is looking at Runes as part of Glorantha so forgive my Gloranthan slant but many of my points will apply to non Gloranthan worlds that use the rune magic system.

At what point does death break the rune integration? Is it instant? What if someone is resurrected - do they retain their runes or are they gone?

In Glorantha since you can be resurrected for up to a week after death I would think the rune stays with you that long (and so can not be integrated by another for a week after death). Perhaps the bond is broken the minute the soul goes to the underworld, in which case a rune's integration would be lost instantly on death and not survive after resurrection. But I have a hard time picturing a rune being integrated to the physical body rather than the life essence/soul.

We know Runes are not tied to any specific otherworld in Glorantha, they are a part of the world as a whole. Integrating one is the same whether you are a theist, shaman, or sorcerer. So rune integration must represent a kind of joining or integration of the being of the runtouched to the aspect of the world represented by the rune. But since each rune is integrated separately each rune must be unique in its own way (otherwise, once having integrated a fire rune, you should be able to cast fire spells using ANY fire rune you could lay your hands on, not just the integrated one).

Forgive my rambling - I am trying to make sense of the rune touched thing and my thoughts are evolving as I type this. In light of what I have theorised above I think that runes are as unique as people, and that attuning a rune is akin in concept to finding a soul mate. I would tend to think then that as the runetouched soul dies so does the rune. So once integrated a rune is useless forever to anyone else. I like the idea of maybe a new rune appearing where the runetouched died or bled, or maybe in the ashes of his funeral pyre (for those who burn their dead).

So there, if I do anything it will probably be to make rune integration once per rune, and the rune 'dies' with the integrated.

 

[Rurik]

So there, if I do anything it will probably be to make rune integration once per rune, and the rune 'dies' with the integrated.

Or I might go the other extreme. You need to integrate a rune to learn the secrets of that rune (and gain a runic power as a result) but after that there is no difference between any two given runes. If you have Runcasting (Fire) you can cast spells with ANY fire rune you get your hands on, it does not have to be the integrated one.

 

[yeahgday]

how about some sort of "plot device" to dicourage rune harvesting? for example...

if you use a rune that you have intergrated from somone who met an untimely end, then all of the rune magic takes place as normal, but the visual effects of the spell are permiated with black veins, most people can tell the difference between a freely given rune spell and a "tainted" rune spell. In some villages the people will attack you on site, where as in some towns they understand that it's possible that you found a rune of somone that was murdered, but if you use too many then be prepaired to cover your back in the back streets...

pehaps using this rune increases the chance of the spirit of the previous owner appering and attacking?

or, how about if you fail to cast a spell with a tainted rune there is some sort of backfire

perhaps a tainted rune (be it inocently come apon, or from somone your players killed) can be "un tainted" by a leader of a cult, but the leader will only un taint the rune after you complete a quest for them.

you could even let a person will there rune(s) to somone as they die, and if anyone else intergrates the rune, then the rune becomes tainted.

or if the person (or creature) was a part of a cult that the rune was associated with, the associated runes would become tainted apon there murder, but the other runes wouldn't (so killing a broo for their rune of chaos would be a bad idea, but that same broo's rune of healing would be up for grabs)

in the end rune harvesting from an antagonist is ok, but from an inocent or protagonist is bad, I'm sure theres heaps of other plot devices to acheive this.

 

[frogspawner]

I like the idea that integrated Runes die with their owner. That totally wipes out the rune-harvesting problem (and gives trolls more reason to ransom their prisoners, rather than just to be thought of as 'nice guys'...).

But would the Runes be Resurrected if their 'soul-mate' was, or be gone forever like spirits freed from binding?

 

[weasel_fierce]

My thinking is that there's no inherent reason why magic works the same as it does after 500 years (or however long) and a few cosmic holocausts.

 

[Trifletraxor]

How about (did anyone say this allready): You have to have a skill of 95% or so in a rune before you get the big bonus for integration? That would somewhat put a stop to kill for runes-scenarios.

SGL.

 

[frogspawner]

My thinking is that there's no inherent reason why magic works the same as it does after 500 years (or however long) and a few cosmic holocausts.

However the Mongoose 2nd Age stuff goes out of it's way to say ransoming is established practice. And a magic system that virtually requires killing-for-runes is incompatible with that.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I wouldnt say it goes out of the way, but I do agree that its a bad fit with how runes are acquired.

 

[frogspawner]

And do you agree that Rurik's "Runes die with their integrator" idea fits better?

OK, it does contravene the apparent intent of the MRQ rule "...no one else will be able to integrate with the rune until he dies" but isn't that a small price to pay for, at one stroke, restoring ransoms and preventing other rune-proliferation problems?

 

[Exubae]

Having the Rune go to the after life with integrator feels better or absorbed back into the cosmos to condense back in to the physical world elsewhere.

Runes being prizes for killing things feels like a step backwards to the days of monster hunting for XP in AD&D.

Having the runes fade away when its owner dies is the first thing I included in my house rulings, there are plenty of reasons to kill stuff with out heaping more into the pot... I'ld have prefered more reasons for non-violent interaction.

But warming to the idea that the rune actually goes off with the spirit - it also givens some weight to Ancestoral spirits being able to cast Rune Magic.

Losing ransoms just erodes the feel of 'old' Glorantha where players used to rely on more than a sharp blade.

 

[ninthcouncil]

But warming to the idea that the rune actually goes off with the spirit - it also givens some weight to Ancestoral spirits being able to cast Rune Magic.

Excellent point; two birds killed with one stone I think.

 

[Rurik]

I like the idea that integrated Runes die with their owner. That totally wipes out the rune-harvesting problem (and gives trolls more reason to ransom their prisoners, rather than just to be thought of as 'nice guys'...).

But would the Runes be Resurrected if their 'soul-mate' was, or be gone forever like spirits freed from binding?

I had envisioned that since the rune is integrated to the spiritual self/soul of the person the integration would remain after a resurrection. The physical rune would slowly 'die' as the soul became more detached from the physical world, once the dead is beyond resurrection that rune will never again be empowered on the physical plane.

This is based on the idea that each rune is as individual as a person (that is why you have to use the rune you integrated - if all earth runes were the same you should be able to use any earth rune to cast earth runespells, not just the one you integrated - more on this later). So the 'spiritual' aspect of the rune stays linked to the soul of the being who integrated it after death. Also, as Exubae pointed out this helps explain spell spirits having rune magic.

 

[Rurik]

I had considered two approaches to solving the killing for rune 'problem' (though I am not convinced it is that bad - I may still try the RAW to see, and hope the negative stigma from being labeled Rune-murderers will dissuade many from rune-murder).

One, mostly discussed here, is that the rune dies with the being it is integrated to (or more correctly the runes 'soul' moves on to the otherworlds with the 'soul' of the being it is integrated with).

I see two problems with this approach. First is that there is still the 'rune hostage' problem (as in the RAW) - say you are a character who has specialised in rune magic and have a 95% Disorder Runecasting and a 87% Metal Runecasting and someone takes your Disorder and Metal Runes away. You are screwed, probably better they had killed you. The second problem is it removes ALL incentive to kill someone and take their runes. So much for the cult quest 'to get your Mobility Rune you must go and kill the troll Uglugh and take his'.

The other approach is that once integrated runes are interchangeable (i.e. not unique entities in and of themselves as the mechanics of the RAW would imply) - all earth runes are the same, all fire runes are the same, etc. Once you have integrated an earth rune you can use ANY earth rune to cast earth spells, after all you have mastered the secrets of the rune.

This approach got me thinking on some alternatives. One is that once you have reached a certain skill, say 80 or 90 in a particular runes runecasting, you no longer need to possess a physical rune to cast it's spells. Another is that the special bonus for being runetouched does not occur with integration but with mastery of that rune (80% or 90% or so again) - this prevents people from just integrating runes willy nilly just for the bonus - you have to actually spend effort and skill improvements on understanding that rune.

The second approach allows you still kill things and take their runes, and to still be able to cast rune magic if someone takes your runes.

 

[frogspawner]

The 'rune hostage' problem can be solved by the interpretation that runes, when integrated, meld with the Rune Touched in some way (enter the bloodstream, become a tattoo, or whatever). (This only very slightly infringes the RAW, as far as I'm aware).

Resurrected characters could find that some of their Runes come back with them, but some don't - depending on the number of days they were dead. This ties in with old-time RQ. (I'd suggest the Runes the GM doesn't want the players to have will go first!)

The loss of the "Rune Quest" pun would be a shame. Maybe some circumstances will allow Divinations to show where un-integrated Runes are, both to your cult and others... and the race is on! (But what circumstances might they be?)

 

[Trifletraxor]

The baby is broken. Throw it out with the bathwater! :twisted:

SGL.

 

[frogspawner]

Yeah, I know. But aren't we here to help fix the baby?

"Never buy version 1.0 of anything!"