Runequest Modern -- What do you know?

[Utgardloki]

I'm working on how to determine skills for modern-era PCs. To do so I need to come up with a list for what an adult in a modern, industrial society would probably know. Note that this applies to PCs who can be assumed to have been motivated enough not to blow off school and pick up at least these skills. NPCs might be missing some skills, and PCs who want to can shift points from these skills to other skills to indicate an incomplete education.

I've come up with the following list of the basics that a modern character with some motivation would have when she graduates from High School:

Drive Automobile: +20%*
Lore (World) +20%
Lore (Science) +5%
Math +10%
Speak Native Language Int * 10%
Read Native Language Int * 10%**
Breadth of Knowledge: 10 x Int in skill points that can be divided among different skills, with no more than 20 points going to any particular skill.

* Drive Automobile is a specialization of the Driving skill. If a character has at least 20% in the skill, a Driving skill is not required for basic manuevers. If a character has less than 20%, a skill roll may be required. Drive Automobile can be added to Driving to make a skill roll when driving an automobile or light truck such as a pickup truck or minivan. Drive Automobile does not allow one to drive a stick-shift without a driving roll, but someone with 10% in Drive Automobile can add 10% to her effective Drive Stick-Shift score to determine if she has to make basic manuevers.

** I've been debating with myself whether a high school graduate's skill in Read Native Language should be 5 * Int or 10 * Int.

Thoughts, feelings, cries of outrage?

 

[atgxtg]

Interesting.

BTW, I'm not sure if you read this bit or not, but "by the book" Language skill encompasses R/W at 80%+. I don't know if you were aware of this or deliberately going back to separate skills.

If you want to group them together like in the core book, you could go with Langauge @ INT+80%. THat would make every HS graduate literate.

If you don't have that much confidence is the school system, you could lower that to INT+75% or even INT+70%


BTW, With Breadth of Knowledge, hopw about allowing smarter people to be better with a skill rather than just knowing more skills? Change the points allowed for one skill from 20 to 2xINT or INT+10.

 

[Utgardloki]

I think it's probably cleaner to separate speaking and reading into separate skills. I'll probably be doing that for archaic campaigns, where it is more likely that a person will be speaking languages but not reading them.

It is also possible to know how to read a language without speaking it. I used to be able to read German with a little bit of fluency (perhaps 15%) but couldn't speak it at all (I just could not pronounce anything).

I suppose if two languages had the same alphabet, and you knew how to read one language, you could use it to read or try to speak the other. So if you can read and speak English and can speak Spanish, you can use those three skills to try to read Spanish. Trying to speak Spanish if you can only read it would be more difficult, because you wouldn't have much of a clue how to pronounce the words.

 

[atgxtg]

Oh, I agree with you, I was just pointing out the way it works in the book.
There are several ancient languages that modern scholars can read, but really don't know how to pronounce.

I'm running into a similar problem with the "one skill for both" method with my notes for a Roman setting. Most romans were semi-literate-meaning that they could read a sensenceor two-if given time. THat worked out well with separate skills, but not so well with the new 50%/80% rules.

If you are going to keep them separate, I'd suggesting going with opeing them both at 50+INT. THat would make characters fluent. If you want to go with a more modern school system, with a percentage of the students being illiterate, drop it to 40+INT or maybe 45+INT.

It not like it is going to be rolled at lot. If someone is "fluent" they shouldn't have to roll against their reading skill each morning while reading the paper.

 

[Utgardloki]

I'm running into a similar problem with the "one skill for both" method with my notes for a Roman setting. Most romans were semi-literate-meaning that they could read a sensenceor two-if given time. THat worked out well with separate skills, but not so well with the new 50%/80% rules

A rule of thumb that I've been working on is that with less than 20% skill, a character has to roll for every task, and with less than 30% skill, a character has to roll for every task except for the very simple tasks. As an option, I could ask the character to roll 1d20 for very simple tasks and 1d30 for simple tasks, to represent that a character who is close to the cutoff has mastered at least most of the basics.

Assuming that Read Language defaults to straight Int (although actually I'd default it to Int/4), it's easy to make semi-literate characters.

So maybe I should set the reading skill for a modern character's native language to Int * 5.

I also intend to introduce a Multilingual Education advantage which grants extra skill points that can only be used for languages. This is intended to allow creation of characters from bilingual countries or immigrant characters who were raised with two different languages and mastered them both.

 

[atgxtg]

The 1d20 or 1d30 idea works. Remminds me of the old FASA Star trek system. It was % but characters with skills belowa certain theshold had to roll for some taks.

I'd suggest keeping all the skill rolls 1D100. JUst give the characters the very easy 60% modifer, or maybe even a +70% or +80% modifer. THat way someone with a 13% skill will make most of his "roll everything tasks".

INT/4 is probably more realstic, but doesn't work well with the 3 improvment picks sytem of MRQ. Especially with all the other skills (like ENginnering) starting off higher. Plus, considering how long it will take to hit 50%, making the character spend an extra 3 improvemnts just to get to INT level is a bit harsh. Basically the player could pick up a new language faster than his character.

If would be difficernt if you use the gold old checkbox system.

INTx5% is certainly usable (Call of Cthulu has done it that way for years). But do you think that someone who has an extra point of INT really learns a whole 5% more than someone else? If so, why not have the same apply to math or science or Lore (World)? Should people really get 65% to R/W but only 10% to math? Should a gennius get 90% R/W but the same 10% to math?

I think all the skills should start off the same. Either make all the bonuses stat x something (Math, Science, and World Lore @ INT x5%, and Drive Auto @ DEXx5% isn't a bad idea, the old BRP Superworld game did that for modern skills) or none of them.

But that is just my two cents.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I'd add a "computer use" skill which applies to searching the interweb, using standard software, and the like.

Programming would be and advanced skill.

 

[Utgardloki]

INTx5% is certainly usable (Call of Cthulu has done it that way for years). But do you think that someone who has an extra point of INT really learns a whole 5% more than someone else? If so, why not have the same apply to math or science or Lore (World)? Should people really get 65% to R/W but only 10% to math? Should a gennius get 90% R/W but the same 10% to math?

My thinking is that most high school graduates learn to read and write at a relatively high level of proficiency: enough to read a newspaper and understand what is happening in Afghanistan, for example, or to write a comprehendable letter expressing what is happening in their community. So a very high level of reading is apropos.

On the other hand, most high school graduates don't come out with a lot of math knowledge. They are much further ahead than the average citizen of an archaic society, able to multiply and divide fractions. But a simple algebra or geometry problem would be likely to stump someone who did not have a special interest or talent in math or work in a math-oriented career.

In the most advanced math course I took, a 400-level math course in topology, I had a classmate from Yugoslavia who commented that he or anyone else in the class could take and pass a 400-level literature course, but an English major would probably not be able to pass a 400-level math course.

I'd add a "computer use" skill which applies to searching the interweb, using standard software, and the like.

That is a very good idea. I'll have to add that to the list for graduates of Level III (Cybernetic) societies. By my reckoning, that would include the western industrial countries starting around 1990.

My own modern campaign is set in the 1970s, so most graduates would not have computer usage. But students coming out of school in the 1990s or 2000s would probably have it +10% in it. Perhaps +5% for graduates of the class of 1990, with an additional +1% for each year until the class of 2000, which would get +15%. Perhaps also modify +/- for social class.

Based on the "Boating and other basic skills" thread, my approach would be to make Computer Usage a skill that applies to any use of any computer, from the ancient systems of the 1940s to the positronic robots of the future. Programming would be a specialization. Once a person learns one language to the +20% level, picking up any other language is just a matter of looking up how it handles the same scenarios, so there would be just one Programming skill.

 

[atgxtg]

Uh, the newpaper is set for a 6th grade reading level. The average person doesn't read for pleasure, and has R/W skills on par with thier math skills.

Basically going to shcool and getting an education is really no guarantee that you are learning anything. Plus school is designed for mediocrity. It actually is more difficult to learn anything about the set percentage that they are shooting for. For instance, if theyt are teaching Histroy skill and trying to get the class up to 30%, if a student picks it up fast, the teacher isn't going to pull out the 35% stuff.

Keep in mind if we got INTx10% for language skills, we'd all be able to write a great novel. Most people can't write an email and get it right without spellcheck.

 

[Utgardloki]

INTx5% is certainly usable (Call of Cthulu has done it that way for years). But do you think that someone who has an extra point of INT really learns a whole 5% more than someone else? If so, why not have the same apply to math or science or Lore (World)?

I think the INT x 5% rule for reading and the INT x 10% rule for speaking only apply for one's native language. (And I am becoming convinced that reading one's native language could be set at INT x 5%, while INT x 10% is still reasonable for speaking one's native language.) Because our thought processes are so closely related to being able to talk about things, and the close association between reading and talking, it seems that an increase in INT would affect native language skills moreso than other skills.

If somebody changed his native language (say an American moved to France and switched his native language to French), then it would be his French skills that would benefit from increasing INT, while his English skills would stay were they were except for improvement rolls. This implies that he built his French up high enough to use it as his native language.

Also, the 5x benefit for reading would only apply to those who had a reading skill at or above 5x INT. A Roman who only had 22% in Read Latin would not gain 5 points for raising his INT one point. And it only applies to one's native language: a Roman with INT 12 who could read both Latin and Greek at 60% would only raise Latin by 5% when his INT goes up to 13; 1 point would be added to Greek as per a normal skill.

Part of the philosophical difficulty is deciding what constitutes a simple "English problem" and what constitutes a simple "math problem". It seems to me that if we look at English and Math courses in college that are rated at the same level, there are many more people able to handle the English course than able to handle the Math course. Most people might not read for pleasure (I read once that the average person in the U.S. reads one book a year), but if you give them a book, they can tell you what it's about, or pass a test based on that book. If you give them a math test, the average person would probably flunk unless it was sixth grade level.

So if the average person reads at the fluency of 65% (assuming an average INT of 13), he probably can do math a little less than half as well, or 30%. Given that he's getting +13% for his INT as a default, a +25% seems reasonable for Math skill.

I think my first estimate was +10%, which would allow the average guy (adding his default INT to this) to do very simple problems without a roll, but require a roll for easy problems. Even a very intelligent guy, with an INT of 18, would still require a roll for easy problems (such as calculating change) unless he got a couple of extra points to raise his effective Math skill from 28% to 30%. This could be a math-illiterate humanities major.

Writing a novel would require not only Read/Write language, but also creativity skills such as Composition and Novel Composition. And it also requires the motivation to sit at a keyboard or with a pen and pad of paper and work at it for month after month.

The Read/Write skill allows you to put your concepts down on paper and read concepts put down on paper by other people, but you need other skills to get those concepts in the first place. An example would be the engineers I work with, who can read and write test case instructions that are fairly complex (if not always spelled correctly). A person without skills in the field would be totally lost.

 

[atgxtg]

The Read/Write skill allows you to put your concepts down on paper and read concepts put down on paper by other people, but you need other skills to get those concepts in the first place. An example would be the engineers I work with, who can read and write test case instructions that are fairly complex (if not always spelled correctly). A person without skills in the field would be totally lost.

Having worked from ladder diagrams, blueprints, fabrication procedure sheets, and schematics I know what you mean. BAsically, in the modern age, any particlar branch of technology essentially has it's own "language" and terms.

I'm just thinking 130% Speak for Joe average seems a bit high, Especially for a skill that probably isn't going to be rolled.

Basically, the players can pick up a new angauge faster than their characters after you factor in for the 3 improvemnt roll system. It is going to take something like 85 improvement rolls to speak a language like a native.

How about instead of tiing it to INT you tie it to EDUcation (as in CoC). So that way someone who has gone through 12 years of school get x% per year. Someone who has gone to a 4 year college get 16 times x% and so on.

 

[Utgardloki]

I suppose I could provide for a way to accellerate learning of a language if someone is immersed in it. I'll have to do some research into how long it takes to learn a language.

One thing I've noticed as a generalization is that for some reason females from east Asia tend on the average to be more fluent in English than males from east Asia. I'm not sure why that is, unless it's because if females tend to be more vocal than males, then they'd have more opportunity to learn the language and pick it up faster.

Of course, as an American, I accept Americans are notoriously slow to pick up other languages. This could be due to motivation and arrogance. After all, shouldn't everybody speak English? 8)

 

[Rurik]

Of course, as an American, I accept Americans are notoriously slow to pick up other languages. This could be due to motivation and arrogance. After all, shouldn't everybody speak English? 8)

No, they should speak American. Those blokes from England sound all funny when they speak American.

(runs and hides)

 

[Utgardloki]

In Iowa, the State Legislature made English the official state language. So I guess we'll have to bring a bunch of people over here from the UK to teach us the language.

 

[atgxtg]

In Iowa, the State Legislature made English the official state language. So I guess we'll have to bring a bunch of people over here from the UK to teach us the language.

:lol:

What would make sense for language study would be to give improvement rolls for using the language. Like is someone goes to another country and speaks it every day. Under the old rules I could see treating this as study time.

With MRQ, I guess you could give out an extra/free improvemnt roll for such sitatuations.

 

[AKAramis]

Well, considering most Citizens of the United States of America do not actually speak nor write American Standard English, but some regional dialect thereof, it is basically a moot point.

Several states have official languages; The USofA does not (yet).

Learning English is bloody hard because English is inconsistent and polyglot. Worse still, due to the polyglot and amalgamative tendencies, it readily forms semi- to un-intelligible jargons and dialects. Grok?

Also, English has pretensions of Literariness... which leads to creative exploration of the bounds... and a refusal of the English Speaking Countries' Language Authorities to adopt, mandate, or even seriously consider spelling and/or alphabetic reform.

(I'm currently taking a class on teaching English to bilingual students. OY!)

So, if you want to model languages, English is about the WORST case to study... the learning curve matches little else besides Friezlunder... (which shares the same polyglot agglutinative tendencies, influx languages, and invader list.)

 

[atgxtg]

I had heard that the two most difficult languages to pick up are English and Mandarin Chinese.

 

[Halfbat]

Drive Automobile: +20%*

* Drive Automobile is a specialization of the Driving skill. If a character has at least 20% in the skill, a Driving skill is not required for basic manuevers. If a character has less than 20%, a skill roll may be required. Drive Automobile does not allow one to drive a stick-shift without a driving roll, but someone with 10% in Drive Automobile can add 10% to her effective Drive Stick-Shift score to determine if she has to make basic manuevers.

I think this is very region specific. In the UK, for example, stick-shift is in the majority of cars (I didn't even know what it referred to for years!) and some peeps get briefly (temporarily) confused when driving auto until they realise it is simpler. You get used to gearchange v. quick.

It may be better to not go to quite this level of complexity/ granularity...

 

[Utgardloki]

I would like to have fun with characters who don't know how to drive a stick shift. I remember when I first got a stick shift, it took a few times before I realized I had to take the car out of 3rd gear and back into 1st when I stopped at a stop sign.

I'm kind of amazed that '69 Chevy van survived the abuse I gave it.

I probably should consider whether characters from outside the United States would have the same cirriculum as United States graduates. Since I think most of the cirriculum would be covered under Lore (World), the question would be whether other countries cover Driving in high school, or whether they manage to educate their citizens to a higher or lower proficiency than American citizens.

(There is actually quite a bit of variance in American schools, but this list is intended to be used for PC generation, and it is assumed that wherever a PC came from, he was motivated enough to master a minimal proficiency somehow, through self-study or private tutoring if need be, even if his school was literally falling apart. NPCs might be lacking these minimal skills. It is also assumed that a PC will use discretionary points to build up areas that apply to his character.)