Runequest 3rd Edition question

[Sir Hackalot]

Are we doing something wrong?

I have been in an on-again-off again, Runequest 3rd Edition (Avalon Hill version) for some time now. Maybe say 6 months if we played it consistently. So far I sort of like the setting of Glorantha and I find it be a very welcome change from the standard D&D style campaign. Unfortunately I really have to say that I have grown to depise the combat system. As IT TAKES FOREVER!

Nearly every combat we get involved in takes up an entire game session to resolve. It just seems to be way too heavily structured, so much so that I find myself preferring D&D combat just because it is faster in comparison. I think that the whole strike ranks element is what drags it down so much, but when I mention this to Gary, my GM he looks at me like I'm crazy.

So are we missing something? Has anyone else experienced this as well? Does the new Mongoose/Runequest help with this?

 

[Rurik]

It is hard to say if you are doing something wrong without watching a play session.

With an experienced (at RQ) group combat goes pretty fast. Usually any increase in resolution time due to the mechanics is made up for by the lethality of the system.

Large combats can take a while, but I think this is true of most systems.

Many players ignore the ENC/Fatigue rules - this can save some time and recordkeeping.

An organized GM goes a long way in running quick combats. Good NPC/Squad sheets are invaluable.

MRQ combat does not seem faster contrary to some claims. Keeping track of Actions/Reactions takes up any time saved by other 'streamlining'.

MRQ uses an initiative system. It is called Strike Rank in name only - you roll a d10 and add a fixed modifier (avg. of DEX and INT).

MRQ definately has more in common with D&D than RQ3 does, so if you may like MRQ over RQ3 if you like D&D compared to RQ3.

EDIT: Clarification: My comments on combat not being quicker a based only on a few smaller combats. They may prove to be quicker once more familiar with the system, but I don't think so based on my limited experience with MRQ.

 

[Trifletraxor]

I've played and gamemastered RQ3 for around 12 years. The time for a battle to resolve varies, but I've never experienced a fight that takes an entire session. It might have to do with you and your eniemies being to heavily armored, to much protective spells and too little damage done by the weapons. That would increase the time. Also if you fight a lot of opponents at the same time, the fight will prolong. Experience with the system decreases the time. Also if the GM split the fights into groups, finishing one and one player fighting individual fights, the real time spent fighting drops. We maximally used 2 hours for the biggest fights, usually concluding a main confrontation in the scenario.

SGL.

 

[Durand Durand]

The old RQ3 SR system used to bog down a bit sometimes in big or skilled fights. I never really liked SR's a lot myself as they created bookkeeping that slowed things down.

I played in one game that used a purely reach based SR system. Until you closed, the person with reach had the advantage and could act first if they chose too. Draws on reach were decided by DEX. Using miniatures in this kind of system helped, though sometimes we just abstracted it. We also used penalties for attack and parry for someone inside your reach or beyond your reach. This system made grappling skill a lot more usefull, if somewhat hazardous in closing.

Individual fights could be somewhat complex in initiative, say with a spearman holding off one swordsman while another got inside his guard. Made things a lot more interesting though. We played only one action with a weapon unless it was two handed, so players used shield bashing and different hand-to-hand skills too as secondary assault methods. Of course true masters could halve their skill and have two actions with a weapon in addition to the extra action, so they could be really terrifying if they pulled their attacks off. I imagine these ideas might work with MRQ too.

 

[Richard]

I had played/ran many systems (D+D variants, Bushido, Palladium, Traveller, Merp, Rolemaster, Golden Heroes, CoC...) and many more since (Ars Magica, Harn, Trinity, Mage...) but I have to say RQ3 is probably the best commercial system I've used and the best of the BRP fantasy variants. What it is not is immediate and simple to learn. We found though that the SR sequence came quite naturally after a few games . Sorcery and Fatigue %'s were by far the trickiest bit. The easiest thing for a newcomer to do is to keep these in the background until their group is comfortable with combat. It has a really fast, furious gritty and convincing feel. Combats could take a while to resolve but these were usually engrossing high drama affairs and, given the relatively realistic possibilty of death of serious injury, weren't eagerly sought by most PCs! I made up handy combat tracking sheets for involved combats. Highly recommended if you can get those books!

 

[simonh]

Strike Ranks can be tricky to manage, but it is possible.

One common mistake made even by quite experienced RQ GMs is to allow players to modify and even completely change their character's actions during the combat round. IMHO the best way to manage RQ combat rounds is strict enforcement of the whole turn procedure.

Start with a clear statement of intent, for the whole round, for every character. ANY change of intent after this, once the SR countdown has started, will invoke the 3SR penalty. Have players give their statement of intent in round-the-table order, allowing for some changes and negotiation between players. Be flexible here. But once the last statement has been given, that's it. Make it perfectly clear when you're switching from statement of intent to SR resolution.

I do this in all games, but in RQ3 it's particularly important.

 

[RMS]

Some interesting takes. I'm different from a lot of you apparently. I use the SR's as just a glorified initiative and then use some common sense adaptations to adjust on the fly. I don't bother with RQ3 fatigue during combat. It's a penalty that only affects someone if they're overloaded (ie. negative fatigue) from standard kit point-for-point if they can drop it at the beginnig of hostilities, or five-for-one points if they can't drop it in combat.

Reach always gets first attack until the shorter reach closes, and then the shorter reach has the advantage. In equal fights, it comes down to basic SRs only modified by magic being cast. Since RQ battles tend to be skirmishes, rather than mass melees, I abstract all the movement. In my games, there's usually some movement and maneuver, and then a clash of a couple of rounds of combat, then some more maneuver and another clash. I rarely see fights go beyond 5 combat rounds in practise. By that time someone will be injured and out or will have retreated after having been convinced they're outmatched by their foe.

Oh, and I generally find that combats go 15-30 minutes for my group. (Admittedly, it's a small group, so that helps, but sometimes has 6-8 peole per side.) They only drag out for the occasional long melee duel with skilled opponents. Sometimes a single combat will hit an hour, but it's rare in my experience.

 

[Sir Hackalot]

Well then we must be doing something wrong because so far I feel like I am playing a Wargame more than an RPG. Maybe too many actions are being allowed in a round or maybe we have become so used to D&D combat that RQ is just too different. Or maybe it's because my character has lost two arms and a leg so far.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

RQ3 combat always went really quickly for me too. Maybe your GM is not managing Strike Ranks and Fatigue efficiently?

 

[soltakss]

RQ Combat can go quickly and can go slowly.

In my experience, SRs are not the cause of things slowing down, it's plater indecision, spell casting and so on.

The best way, in my opinion, to use SRs efficiently, is for players to work out the SR for their attacks, which normally don't change, then for the GM to call out SRs and any actions are carried out on each SR.

So, the GM might say "SR 1,2,3".
Player1: "Derak attacks with his Maul, he rolls a 50, special and does 18 daamge to the 12"
GM: "The broo parries but is a bit injured".
GM: "OK, SR 4,5"
Player2: "My spell goes off and I overcome POW 17"
GM: "OK, the ogre is demoralised"
and so on.

It can be that fast, as fast as you read it.

Of course, what normall happens is:
GM: "SR 1,2,3,4,5"
Player1: "What? SR 3, Derak attacks" ....
or Player1: "Did you see Robin Hood last night?"
or Player1: "SR3, Derak attacks," shaking dixe for 10 minutes without rolling ...
or Player1: "Ok, Derak attacks. What's his attack? What spells has he got? OK, I roll a 50, what's that? A special. OK, what damage do I roll" ...

Aaaagh!!!

But large, complicated combats take longer than simple small combats. If a monster has high APs or a good parry then things will take longer.

But, no, SRs are rarely the cause of the problem, if people are organised and know when they attack, what their attack/parry chances are and what the spells do.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

The best way, in my opinion, to use SRs efficiently, is for players to work out the SR for their attacks, which normally don't change, then for the GM to call out SRs and any actions are carried out on each SR.

So, the GM might say "SR 1,2,3".
Player1: "Derak attacks with his Maul, he rolls a 50, special and does 18 daamge to the 12"
GM: "The broo parries but is a bit injured".
GM: "OK, SR 4,5"
Player2: "My spell goes off and I overcome POW 17"
GM: "OK, the ogre is demoralised"
and so on.

It can be that fast, as fast as you read it.

Yup, that's the way I did it. Seemed logical and sensible, and never a problem. Having a list of SRs for the bad guys prepared in advance helped a lot too.

 

[Sir Hackalot]

I think that one problem our GM might be having is that he counts out movement and tries to micromanage everything in combat. He needs to do what you suggested and have everyone's action just "happen". An example is like this from our last combat.

GM: "Ok, you see the sable riders heading your way."

Players: "Ok, we cast our spells ahead of time and wait for them to come".

Player 1 (me). I will not ambush since I worship Humakt*, I will wait for them to reach to crest of the hill and charge."

GM: Ok, counting strike ranks.

1 move
2 move
3 move
4 move
5 move
6 move
7 attack!..... and miss.
8 wait
9 wait
10 wait

New round
He does this all the time, he tries manage every little damn thing! I mean he makes out a freakin chart to keep everyones Strike Ranks in order!

I think this may be the problem. I hope it is because I think that this game has promise, it just feels too clunky.

 

[soltakss]

Well, moving by SR is the best way to do it, but put all the moves in one go.

So rather than him saying "SR1 Move, 2 Move, 3 Move" it's better to do all unopposed moves in one go and start the combat round after that. After all, a combat round is exactly that - a round of combat. If they haven't closed then don't make it a round.

If they use missile weapons while closing then treat movement as an ongoing thing and do the missile SRs. If you shoot them, then use your missile SRs as well.

If they are moving in combat, then that's fair enough, but it shouldn't take too long to move the figures around.

Also, I have never really bothered keeping track of movements to the metre. People move around pretty freely in combat and that's how it should be.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Charting out SRs is OK, so long as it's done only once, preferably for the baddies only, and included in their stats. It can actually make things flow a lot faster.

Does he pause at the start of each round to make out a new chart? Now that would seriously slow stuff down.

 

[Vatras]

I would say, that RQ 3 combat is at least as fast as the others, but often faster (just think RoleMaster here)...you need only to have your strike ranks written up and all rolls can be resolved without looking up rules, if everyone has his character sheet and the GM his NPC table (after all, you need to know your skill scores).

When nothing happens during a rank, or if ranks do not matter, ignore them (e.g. if players prepare spells while the enemy moves towards them, all you need to know is what they cast on whom, nobody is interfering with each other).
Structure, order and method are important, but can often be scrapped for the sake of enjoyment