Revamping Dragon Warriors?

[BSJ]

Thanks Dominik.

Well, first of all, there are no "derived" characteristics as no score of any sort is calculated from anything else. It's all either rolled randomly or assigned by class, and I figured I'd eliminate the "rolled randomly" for our "standard method" to discuss, and just combine the two into "assigned by class".

I'm somewhat familiar with HERO 6th Ed. so I've seen this before. I believe that there should be some flow between the stats - a character with a high Reflexes should have a high Evasion, for example. If there's no derivation and they're bought with the same pool of points the reverse applies...I buy a high Reflexes, and that leaves me less points to spend to Evasion (or Defense). The degree of negative correlation depends on how many points you have to spend, of course.

I know why HERO did it (because of the positive feedback loop in older versions where you raise stat X, that raises derived stat Y, and you then lower Y and spend the points gained on X again, rinse and repeat). Having derived stat bonuses and separating the upstream and downstream stats seems a better solution to me.

But more importantly, I think something has become clear to me in this little exercise of ours. That is that the DW system is not worth fighting for. You are fighting tooth and nail to keep it almost exactly like it is and I just don't agree. If anything, Legend is the main thing to keep with DW, for me, certainly not the system. And on that note, I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree. I will now officially state that my preference is to go with HERO or GURPS as the new system and drop the old. It's just not worth keeping to me any more.

Fair enough.

 

[alms66]

The quote from me there, I'm talking about there being no derived stats in Dragon Warriors rules, everything is defined by your class except the basic attributes, which you roll, I'm not really following why you switched to HERO there. That, along with the desire to remove random attributes, was why I suggested just lumping them all into the class description and then letting the player customize things from that base.

Anyhow, I came to post this, something I'd thought of, but hadn't posted yet, as I was going to when we made it to combat. I think it's a really cool mechanic, so if a DW2 ever happens with a revamped system, feel free to use it.

Currently, in combat when one gets hit, he takes x number of hit points and that's it, move on to the next round. Currently, a character falls unconscious at 0 hit points and dies at -3 hit points. Let's add a little more variety and flavor there.

Let's change this to be that when you get hit in combat, you take x number of hit points, just as before. But, every time you take a hit, you must make a "Health" check to see if you've been rendered unconscious or if you continue fighting. This check is equal to your Health Points, after taking the wound, plus 5. So, for example, if you have 12 hp and you take 4 hp of damage, you immediately make a Health check and must roll 13 or less (12-4+5=13) on 3d6, otherwise you fall unconscious from the shock of the wounds sustained. To revive from unconsciousness you must roll under your hit points (unmodified), and you can make this roll every round. This means you might fall out of the fight for a little bit, but can possibly rally yourself back into the fray.

Your character dies when he reaches 0 hp. To compensate, we'd need to boost hp a little, basically by +3, but it avoids the "-3 weirdness" of the original rules.

So yeah, it adds an extra roll to combat, but I think the flavor of the mechanic would be worth it. At the very least it could be an optional rule - and the 0hp death thing, needs to happen in any revamp, regardless of the check is used or not as the -3 thing was just weird and arbitrary.

 

[BSJ]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't following you? The setup just reminded me of the HERO system approach where you buy the 17 or so stats (from STR to STUN and BODY) all from the same point pool starting with base values?

Just reading your post I hope I haven't given you the idea I had an official connection with anyone important as regards DW. I was just wanting to I guess at least explain why I wanted a revised system - or create a thread that was a resource for anyone rebuilding it. (When I started I did consider doing something myself unofficially, but I'm not feeling motivated enough at this point - sorry to have wasted your time).

The health roll is an interesting idea, though as you say its an extra die roll - I'd put this in the "requires playtesting" box. I think it would work with your 3d6 mechanic (if not d20), but it'd need to be tested in practice for awhile before you could say its good or whether the effects are too frequent. I agree the -3 is pretty arbitrary though back when it was written this was actually in improvement over the "death at 0" of 1st edition D&D).

It could also be a mechanic used just on critical hits, or it could be used more like warhammer where a character is "safe" until they reach 0 HP, then has to roll for each injury thereafter for effects. If a hit location roll was added you could potentially replace unconsciousness with other effects as well - e.g. rolls to avoid stumbling for leg hits or fumble rolls for arms.

 

[alms66]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't following you? The setup just reminded me of the HERO system approach where you buy the 17 or so stats (from STR to STUN and BODY) all from the same point pool starting with base values?

Ok, I got you now. Not quite. Your class will set your attribute levels, you don't buy them. At least not until the customization stage, but at that point you might have enough points to buy a few +1's or +2's to various attributes. Not enough to really min/max things, and you could put a 'soft-cap' on the number of levels any one single attribute could be raised by saying that the first +1 costs 1 point, the second and each additional +1 costs double. So the cost progression would be 1, 2, 4, 8, etc. so that it would be completely cost ineffective to dump all your points into raising a single stat, though +1 to +3 is reasonable - though not for every stat.

Just reading your post I hope I haven't given you the idea I had an official connection with anyone important as regards DW. I was just wanting to I guess at least explain why I wanted a revised system - or create a thread that was a resource for anyone rebuilding it. (When I started I did consider doing something myself unofficially, but I'm not feeling motivated enough at this point - sorry to have wasted your time).

No, of course not, I got that this is not official. In fact I was thinking a group of fans could band together and make the "unofficial DW 2" ruleset and post it for free online as a pdf book. At most, I thought we might be going for that sort of thing.
However, if you're representative of the people that want to keep the system and just revise it, I honestly don't think it'll be enough of a revision to make any difference and people will see it as "just more of the same." I mean, I like the system as it is now just fine really, though it's nothing special to me either as I only got into DW with the new print runs from Magnum Opus. There are some balance issues with the classes, but that's about all that truly needs immediate fixing - however, if the point of a revision is to get more people into the game, you've got to design for those people you want to target, not yourself. I think a good bit of the lack of acceptance for DW comes from the fact that all characters of a class are virtually identical at first level, there is no room for players creating the exact character they want to play and that the rules need much better organization. That's what people expect from RPG's nowadays as that's what every other system has, and the minor changes you're wanting to do won't address any of that.

The health roll is an interesting idea, though as you say its an extra die roll - I'd put this in the "requires playtesting" box. I think it would work with your 3d6 mechanic (if not d20), but it'd need to be tested in practice for awhile before you could say its good or whether the effects are too frequent. I agree the -3 is pretty arbitrary though back when it was written this was actually in improvement over the "death at 0" of 1st edition D&D).

Indeed, playtesting would be a good idea for any and all changes. Just eyeballing it though, with the +5 and assuming everyone has 13 hit points (a good first level average with the +3 built in), you'd have to roll a 18 or less on 3d6, minus whatever damage you take. Since the biggest damage by any weapon is 6, your first time getting hit would require 12 or less on 3d6, second time you got hit would be 6 or less and a third hit would kill you. That's how I came to the +5 number anyway, playtesting might change that number though.

 

[BSJ]

Well, no idea if I'm representative or not. Via the DW wiki, there seems to be substantial pushes in all sorts of directions - from people opposed to any change, to complete revision to a new system, to using GURPS, FATE, Pathfinder or Savage Worlds. The main person suggesting "revamp" there is Cameron (Muriwo) but I'm unsure as to how far he'd mean to take that. Just FYI, I did first see DW via the older books, as it happens.

I think you have a fairly valid point on that a minimum level of change is required to get 'new blood' as it were. However, quite apart from being conservative, I'd probably go in a different direction. To be honest I largely play 3.5 D&D, and even going with for more radical revision I'd probably be more inclined to keep the original stat array and class/level structure, keep using a d20 roll rather than 3d6 for most tasks, and just add more Professions and options for each (feats-esque), rather than move to a point-based system with disadvantages etc...so even moving off my conservative stance, we're not likely to get much agreement.
Unfortunately, a revamping stance seems to have the same problems as choosing a new system, even though the amount of movement isn't as far.

Again, sorry. While I think everyone means the best for DW, and indeed seem to be very nice folks, everyone feels quite strongly about it and have substantially differing ideas.

 

[alms66]

No problem. We've got no needs to apologize here, we just see different paths as the "right" one for DW. In fact, based on your feedback, I think you're over-complicating what I'm talking about doing - you're seeing too much GURPS in it than what I'm imagining. I'm thinking I might do a full write-up of the Warrior class and the character creation process in a new thread. Hopefully I'll do a better job of explaining it there than I did here and maybe we'll get more people discussing both of these ideas (DW 1.2 and DW 2.0), which would be a great thing.

I like the rule system and the setting (Legend) equaly. Maybe the rules even a bit more. After years of playing with "skill heavy" systems, DW is a revelation for me.

I meant to reply to this as well, but it slipped my mind. DW has lots of skills too, they just wrap them up neatly under the classes. For example, every knight "ability" is really just a skill. In fact, most of the class abilities are, the exceptions being Berserk and Bloodrage from the Barbarian, and a few others like those which aren't really skills since they can't be learned and/or improved.
I don't get people saying it has no skill system, sure it does, it's just a little different than the usual one.

 

[Dominik]

@alms66
Yes, these are skills. But this is nothing, compared to a full skill list, for example as in BRP oder RQII (which i played a lot in the last time). This is definetly totally different in DW. But it works well and i like it.

 

[wimlach]

If you are a member of the Dragwars mailing list, there's a 'skill based' rules mod in there called "Dragon Warriors Skill Based Character Creation 05.doc" that covers much of what you're talking about.

You choose race, then a 'template' profession that adjusts your basic attributes.

After that you can develop the character as you wish using a simple points system (which are awarded on each increase in rank).

Note it is fully compatible with regular DW, and can actually be used alongside the normal profession rules (though a player must choose one or the other at character creation).

 

[BSJ]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

(I think I tried ages back (prior to the new Mongoose release) to join a DW yahoogroup and never had my application approved...I don't remember for sure if that was Dragwars or one of the other DW yahoo groups, though).

 

[aethelwulf22]

I'll just chime in to say that I personally like the system as well as the setting. It is the combination of the two that drew me to DW in the fist place so I'd be sad to see the system ditched.

If it is to be ditched then my vote would go to Runequest II which retains a certain 'old school' flavour that I think is important to the game and would be a good fit for the semi-historical feel of the setting.

I'm afraid I wouldn't buy a GURPS or HERO DW...nor a FATE version as has been suggested elsewhere. As I said earlier...part of the attraction to me is that 'old school' feel.

Just my two cents...

 

[BSJ]

Hi wimlach. Interesting, though I think skills development should be limited to just the skills -I'm leave Professions with their fixed base values for Attack, Defense, Stealth and the like since letting people choose between having +1 attack and getting a skill means a choice between powerful boring characters and interesting weaker ones.

 

[wimlach]

The issue was considered.

When a character increases in rank, they get 10 advancement points to spend.

A character can only improve an attribute or skill once per rank. So it is impossible to generate a character with a significantly higher score in any attribute compared to a 'standard' profession. The only exception is Evasion - someone could get +1 evasion every rank, but this would be expensive and reduce opportunities for other advancements.

So a fighter may indeed increase attack by +1, but that is the maximum per rank. He still has 9 other points to spend. His total outlay for fighter basics might be thus:
+1 Attack (1 point)
+1 Defence (1 point)
+1 Health (1 point)
+1 Magical Defence (1 point)
+1 Evasion (3 points)

This leaves him with 3 points to spend, ideally on a skill or two. In this case he decides to spend his remaining points on Expert Parry (a skill that costs 3 points).

Next rank, instead of Evasion, he may buy some Stealth & Perception (2 points each), and perhaps a less expensive ability such as 'Weaponskill' (another 2 points).

Compare with a Sorcerer's typical outlay:
+1 Magical Attack (1 point)
+1 Magical Defence (1 point)
+4 MP's (2 points)
+1 Sorcery (2 points)

Spending six points gets all the sorcerer basics. Next, the player selects some skills. He would like a traditional scholarly sorcerer, so selects improvements in the three typical sorcerous skills:

+1 Calligraphy (1 point)
+1 Alchemy (1 point)
+1 Artifice (1 point)

This leaves him with 1 point to spend. Maybe +1 health? Or a +1 to defence. Or he'll save it to put towards +1 Evasion next rank increase.