Nyarlathotep
Mongoose
Err.. perhaps i've been looking in the wrong places in the Core Book, but where are the rules for Scholars to learn new spells (outside of the spells they gain from leveling up.) from tutoring, spell books, etc?
Researching New Spells?
- Thread starter Nyarlathotep
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Nyarlathotep
Mongoose
Hmm.. well this is something i wish they retconned with Conan 2nd edition.
I find it counterintuitive that sorcerers can't learn spells even from spellbooks until they reach a new level.
I figured that folks like the Master of Yimsha, Thoth-Amon, Kalanthes, and the leader of the Asura cult in Aquilonia would be able to come up with their own spells without "leveling up."
Hmm.. maybe this can be fixed by a Feat that can be acquired only at higher levels, as i assume this move was made to try and limit the number of spells players had access to.
I find it counterintuitive that sorcerers can't learn spells even from spellbooks until they reach a new level.
I figured that folks like the Master of Yimsha, Thoth-Amon, Kalanthes, and the leader of the Asura cult in Aquilonia would be able to come up with their own spells without "leveling up."
Hmm.. maybe this can be fixed by a Feat that can be acquired only at higher levels, as i assume this move was made to try and limit the number of spells players had access to.
When you say "learn new spells" you mean you mean that the character learns a new spell to cast, as in learning a new Advanced Spell (as opposed to learning a "new spell" that is not a spell from the core rulebook).
The answer is you only gan new spells from leveling up, bonus spells for a high Int (when you level up and qualify) and by taking the Sorcorers Boon feat (when you level up and have a feat to burn).
A scholar cannot gain an unlimited number of "spells known".
Side note - there's no reason a Scholar can't take the Dabler feat as well as anybody else. Take Dabler for sorcery styles outside your main styles to drastically increase your flexibility (though you can only use it a limited number of times per month).
Hope that helps.
The answer is you only gan new spells from leveling up, bonus spells for a high Int (when you level up and qualify) and by taking the Sorcorers Boon feat (when you level up and have a feat to burn).
A scholar cannot gain an unlimited number of "spells known".
Side note - there's no reason a Scholar can't take the Dabler feat as well as anybody else. Take Dabler for sorcery styles outside your main styles to drastically increase your flexibility (though you can only use it a limited number of times per month).
Hope that helps.
Nyarlathotep
Mongoose
Now you see Argo, that's where it becomes a bit illogical for me as a DM.
That's essentially saying the most powerful sorcerors of the Hyborian age are "Frozen" -
"I learned all that i'm capable of learning. ho hum. guess i won't bother with magical experimentation to come up with new spells.. my Lvl Stats prevent me from doing so?!"
I can hardly imagine those words being spoken by the Master of Yimsha, Thoth-Amon, Pra-Eu (the Lord of the Scarlet Circle), etc.
Spells become less...spell-like in my opinion. Rather, they're now a set of Powers, in a way really no different than a D&D Sorceror or a Mutant etc.
Let me take a wild guess though: This was done for the sake of "game balance" right?
Feph.. I'd prefer to have my Players and NPC Scholars to have more teeth.
Maybe a Feat of some sort to rectify this...going to need to think on that.
That's essentially saying the most powerful sorcerors of the Hyborian age are "Frozen" -
"I learned all that i'm capable of learning. ho hum. guess i won't bother with magical experimentation to come up with new spells.. my Lvl Stats prevent me from doing so?!"
I can hardly imagine those words being spoken by the Master of Yimsha, Thoth-Amon, Pra-Eu (the Lord of the Scarlet Circle), etc.
Spells become less...spell-like in my opinion. Rather, they're now a set of Powers, in a way really no different than a D&D Sorceror or a Mutant etc.
Let me take a wild guess though: This was done for the sake of "game balance" right?
Feph.. I'd prefer to have my Players and NPC Scholars to have more teeth.
Maybe a Feat of some sort to rectify this...going to need to think on that.
its not a problem for high lvl sorcerors to spend decades researching new spells but for pc's its just not gonna happen.
but the thing is this is the problem with a lvl system, fighter classess hit a brick wall aswell and can no longer gain new feats and such just like the sorceror cant gain new spells. if my game lasts long enough to have the pcs hit lvl 20 then ill introduce something like 5kxp to buy a feat or spell or some skill points just so that they can keep advancing.
but the thing is this is the problem with a lvl system, fighter classess hit a brick wall aswell and can no longer gain new feats and such just like the sorceror cant gain new spells. if my game lasts long enough to have the pcs hit lvl 20 then ill introduce something like 5kxp to buy a feat or spell or some skill points just so that they can keep advancing.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Nyarlathotep said:
That is a problem with most level-based, class-based RPGs, even D&D.
Of couse, one can always award XP for researching a spell, which could cause a level increase and allow one to learn the spell.
Just because the book only goes up to lvl 20 doesn't mean you can't get them higher.
Nyarlathotep
Mongoose
YOINK!
Thanks Vincent
Although i've never been prone to having high level games (i think i've only ran one in my life), its nice to know i have something to deal with the siutation.
..and a rational for when high powered NPCs start whipping out things not in the books! (Saves a lot of debate at the table).
Thanks Vincent
Although i've never been prone to having high level games (i think i've only ran one in my life), its nice to know i have something to deal with the siutation.
..and a rational for when high powered NPCs start whipping out things not in the books! (Saves a lot of debate at the table).
Sort of. I mean, in theory you could let a scholar have access to every spell in the game. What would limit his power in that case? Well sooner or later he will run out of PP per day, so that is a cap on power. Also, he can still only cast 1 spell per round (that is, he has a limited number of actions to use per round) so there is balance there as well when he has to decide what spell is most important to cast.Nyarlathotep said:
So you could have a hypothetical super-scholar with access to all spells and still craft a balanced game on a per-encounter basis.
However there is another dimension to the problem. Namely, how much fun is it to play a character who can do everything?
You see, resource scarcity is a big part of the meta-game that is character design. It is the same reason characters only get a limited number of feats. No single character can have every feat in the game and it would be booring if they could. By having limited resources to make a character the player is challenged to build an efficient character and challenge is what makes a game fun. Also it makes leveling up fun when you gain a new level and a shiny new toy (class ability) to play with. And looking forward to the level after that, anticipation of future fun, is fun.
Its also about niche protection. The game is designed to be a group activity so no single player should be able to do anything. You want characters who are limited in what they can do so they have to rely on other players to fill in the gaps and thus spread out the time in the spotlight.
So yes, it is about game balance.
Hope that helps.
IMH (In My Hyboria), scholars can learn spells from spellbooks such as the Book of Skelos. If the decipher script check comes up with a spell, the sorcerer can learn that spell with further study. Month per power point the spell uses is a good rule of the thumb on how much it takes to learn a new spell this way. (The spell costs six power points to cast = six months of study.) They still need to fill the requirements of the spell to be able to learn it. Otherwise it is simply too complex for them to understand.
However, the sorcerers can learn new sorcery styles only through level advancement. This limits their ability to learn new spells from spellbooks, especially as deciphering a spell from the book is essentially random - it might well be something from a school they don't know. Yes, this makes immortal or very old sorcerers much more powerful as they've had time to learn more spells, especially if they have some fabled tomes in their possession. I don't mind. A man needs to be a fool to mess with Thoth Amon.
I haven't thought about researching new spells - as in designing entirely new spells out of scratch, instead of learning existing spells from some source. I don't know if it even fits to the spirit of Hyboria (and Cthulhu!), where magic is something ancient and old, not new that mortals can just come up with. I guess Perform (Ritual) could be used to research new spells in conjucation with Knowledge (Arcana), but it should take years and years...and have a serious chance of complete failure.
However, the sorcerers can learn new sorcery styles only through level advancement. This limits their ability to learn new spells from spellbooks, especially as deciphering a spell from the book is essentially random - it might well be something from a school they don't know. Yes, this makes immortal or very old sorcerers much more powerful as they've had time to learn more spells, especially if they have some fabled tomes in their possession. I don't mind. A man needs to be a fool to mess with Thoth Amon.
I haven't thought about researching new spells - as in designing entirely new spells out of scratch, instead of learning existing spells from some source. I don't know if it even fits to the spirit of Hyboria (and Cthulhu!), where magic is something ancient and old, not new that mortals can just come up with. I guess Perform (Ritual) could be used to research new spells in conjucation with Knowledge (Arcana), but it should take years and years...and have a serious chance of complete failure.
If you follow Raven's rules you can spend XP to learn spells, 500 XP per spell. This isn't as overpowered as it sounds since sorcerers quickly learn to not just grab every spell they can because you end up being behind the group by experience and overall weaker for it.
Basic spells cost I believe 50 XP each, so they're more reasonable, but there're lots of them available (Elements and Forces has 5 I believe.)
Basic spells cost I believe 50 XP each, so they're more reasonable, but there're lots of them available (Elements and Forces has 5 I believe.)
Sarov the Swift
Mongoose
Ive been struggling with this as well. Someone follow me on this just to make sure I have the progression down.
1) At level 1 you take one sorcery style and the basic spell that goes with with it.
2) You can gain extra spells in that style according to your Int modifier. i.e., if you have an Int mod of +2, you gain 2 extra spells, for a total of three.
3) HOWEVER, you must meet the pre-reqs to gain additional advanced spells. This essentially means that no level 1 character can have more than one spell in one style, because as far as I can tell, there are no advanced spells that meet the level 1 pre-reqs.
4) In escense, you only gain a new spell when you level up (level 2 gives you a new sorcery style as well as a new basic spell) and maybe qualify for another spell in your old style.
This strikes me as a little underweighted in the early stages of character development. Let's say your a level one scholar who takes the Nature style. Your basic spell is Summon Small Beast. I'd be a little frustrated if all I could do with my magic is make a bunch of rats or birds pop out of thin air.
What am I missing here? (Besides hybridizing D&D spells, or dropping $24.95 for the Skrolls of Skelos?)
1) At level 1 you take one sorcery style and the basic spell that goes with with it.
2) You can gain extra spells in that style according to your Int modifier. i.e., if you have an Int mod of +2, you gain 2 extra spells, for a total of three.
3) HOWEVER, you must meet the pre-reqs to gain additional advanced spells. This essentially means that no level 1 character can have more than one spell in one style, because as far as I can tell, there are no advanced spells that meet the level 1 pre-reqs.
4) In escense, you only gain a new spell when you level up (level 2 gives you a new sorcery style as well as a new basic spell) and maybe qualify for another spell in your old style.
This strikes me as a little underweighted in the early stages of character development. Let's say your a level one scholar who takes the Nature style. Your basic spell is Summon Small Beast. I'd be a little frustrated if all I could do with my magic is make a bunch of rats or birds pop out of thin air.
What am I missing here? (Besides hybridizing D&D spells, or dropping $24.95 for the Skrolls of Skelos?)
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
By the rules, you can learn a new spell only when gaining a level. I wouldn't touch that rule. If a scholar spends months and months in libraries studying a new spell, then that's experience for him, too, and he may go up a level. But that's not a PC's life.
Yes. Note that you usually can't choose the style freely. Depending on your Background, you either will have some peer group that decides for you, or you have to roll to see if you can learn the desired style or end up with a random one.
Note that you get these bonus spells spread over the levels, not all at once. The first bonus spell is activated at level 3 or something.
Yes. And you gain the first Advanced Spell at level 3 (and the bonus spell, too). You are not supposed to know any AS before that.
Yes. You have to plan your Sorcerer ahead very carefully. Else you may some day take a level and find you don't meet the prereqs for any spell, and then you have to take stinking skill points instead.
It's supposed to be that way. Spellcasters get very powerful in the end, but they may have a hard time surviving the first levels. Magic in Conan is not an everyday replacement for technology as in Forgotten Realms, but a strange, mystical, powerful and dangerous phenomenon. It takes a long time to tap these powers. That's what the Sword and Sorcery genre is about.
If you want to compare to D&D, a 1st level Wizard also knows only a few 1st level spells and can cast only 2 spells per day or so. And they are hardly very effective. In short, the Wizard sucks and needs the other characters for protection.
As for progression beyond level 20, there has recently been a thread about that but it has been swallowed by the rollback.
Sarov the Swift said:
Yes. Note that you usually can't choose the style freely. Depending on your Background, you either will have some peer group that decides for you, or you have to roll to see if you can learn the desired style or end up with a random one.
Note that you get these bonus spells spread over the levels, not all at once. The first bonus spell is activated at level 3 or something.
Yes. And you gain the first Advanced Spell at level 3 (and the bonus spell, too). You are not supposed to know any AS before that.
Yes. You have to plan your Sorcerer ahead very carefully. Else you may some day take a level and find you don't meet the prereqs for any spell, and then you have to take stinking skill points instead.
It's supposed to be that way. Spellcasters get very powerful in the end, but they may have a hard time surviving the first levels. Magic in Conan is not an everyday replacement for technology as in Forgotten Realms, but a strange, mystical, powerful and dangerous phenomenon. It takes a long time to tap these powers. That's what the Sword and Sorcery genre is about.
If you want to compare to D&D, a 1st level Wizard also knows only a few 1st level spells and can cast only 2 spells per day or so. And they are hardly very effective. In short, the Wizard sucks and needs the other characters for protection.
As for progression beyond level 20, there has recently been a thread about that but it has been swallowed by the rollback.
Maybe, I speak for myself, but when trying to explain that to new players, ones who are heavy DnD (high magic) or never played at all, its kinda hard to tell them:
Player: Hey I want to play a Caster
Dasclay: hmm, There Great later in the game but you only have 1-2 spells starting off...
Player: What? thats it? That sucks! why would I want to play a caster
Dasclay: hmm, There great later in the game but you only have 1-2 spells starting off...
Then what? I note players like to use that dang Defensive Blast like a two dollar whore LOL
Player: Hey I want to play a Caster
Dasclay: hmm, There Great later in the game but you only have 1-2 spells starting off...
Player: What? thats it? That sucks! why would I want to play a caster
Dasclay: hmm, There great later in the game but you only have 1-2 spells starting off...
Then what? I note players like to use that dang Defensive Blast like a two dollar whore LOL
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
DasClay said:Then what? I note players like to use that dang Defensive Blast like a two dollar whore LOL
:lol: Oh boy. ^^ Still haven't decided on a fix for that yet.
Ok my 2 coppers:
If you really want to expand sorcerous abilities w/o grossly overpowering you could houserule some simple fixes:
additional spells based on the Characters Charisma Bonus or....
If you want to learn an additional school of sorcery you can trade in 2 Feats to learn one style, not on the normal level progression.
Or combine schools or allow spells to be in two schools at once (I always thought Gelid bones was perfect for oriental magic, more than curses.)
For example the style of Cosmic sorcery is subsumed into Divination, Sea Witchery into Nature Magic, and Immortality into necromancy
Or developing some spells for Curses like a new spell called 'Withering Manhood'? How many fighters would take you on then?
I have to admit when I first started Conan, I was of the opinion: "Damn the Sorceror gets hosed in this game"
but as Argo pointed out this is Hyboria not Forgotten Realms where Magical windmills, continual light spells, and peasant with +1 farm equipment abounds. :?
The magic here is powerful in its own subtle ways.
Nothing like a black plague to ruin your day.
Or having a a female spellcaster 'Enslave' you for life, even if you FAIL your saving throw (per Scrolls of Skelos).
Or having your brawny barbarian being 'entranced' to donate his weapons, horse, and gold to the local temple of set by some low level hypnotist.
Or having a treetrunk fly at you and your pals by some Telekinetic boy genius while your party is crossing a rope bridge in the Kezankinan mountains.
Or meeting a sorceror who casts 'Shapeshifter' and decides that his form will be an a$$-kicking dragon of Kush, who is very hungry right now.
The beauty of the system is that it discourages the magic missile launching and limited wish-using types of 7thgraders which still populate DnD.
I've added some spells that were very unFlashy like spider climb and Mage Armor to Oriental Magic.
The critical thing is to keep up the spirit of Howard, in his works very few mages knew all realms of magic,; some were necromancers, hypnotists, summoners, shamans of pictland, etc...
Like I said, my two cents.
If you really want to expand sorcerous abilities w/o grossly overpowering you could houserule some simple fixes:
additional spells based on the Characters Charisma Bonus or....
If you want to learn an additional school of sorcery you can trade in 2 Feats to learn one style, not on the normal level progression.
Or combine schools or allow spells to be in two schools at once (I always thought Gelid bones was perfect for oriental magic, more than curses.)
For example the style of Cosmic sorcery is subsumed into Divination, Sea Witchery into Nature Magic, and Immortality into necromancy
Or developing some spells for Curses like a new spell called 'Withering Manhood'? How many fighters would take you on then?
I have to admit when I first started Conan, I was of the opinion: "Damn the Sorceror gets hosed in this game"
but as Argo pointed out this is Hyboria not Forgotten Realms where Magical windmills, continual light spells, and peasant with +1 farm equipment abounds. :?
The magic here is powerful in its own subtle ways.
Nothing like a black plague to ruin your day.
Or having a a female spellcaster 'Enslave' you for life, even if you FAIL your saving throw (per Scrolls of Skelos).
Or having your brawny barbarian being 'entranced' to donate his weapons, horse, and gold to the local temple of set by some low level hypnotist.
Or having a treetrunk fly at you and your pals by some Telekinetic boy genius while your party is crossing a rope bridge in the Kezankinan mountains.
Or meeting a sorceror who casts 'Shapeshifter' and decides that his form will be an a$$-kicking dragon of Kush, who is very hungry right now.
The beauty of the system is that it discourages the magic missile launching and limited wish-using types of 7thgraders which still populate DnD.
I've added some spells that were very unFlashy like spider climb and Mage Armor to Oriental Magic.
The critical thing is to keep up the spirit of Howard, in his works very few mages knew all realms of magic,; some were necromancers, hypnotists, summoners, shamans of pictland, etc...
Like I said, my two cents.
Sarov the Swift
Mongoose
DasClay said:Maybe, I speak for myself, but when trying to explain that to new players, ones who are heavy DnD (high magic) or never played at all, its kinda hard to tell them:
Player: Hey I want to play a Caster
Dasclay: hmm, There Great later in the game but you only have 1-2 spells starting off...
Player: What? thats it? That sucks! why would I want to play a caster
Dasclay: hmm, There great later in the game but you only have 1-2 spells starting off...
Then what? I note players like to use that dang Defensive Blast like a two dollar whore LOL
Your comments hearken something I dislike intensely about D&D, and one of the reasons I looked into Conan in the first place. I dislike the early level limitations of D&D Wizards, and found my experiences a Cleric, Druid, Monk, Bard or other such class had much more bang for the buck than a pure magic caster. What I like so far far about Conan is the investment in knowlege and craft skills, the flexible and individualized character generation (allowing one to create a Cleric, Druid, Monk, Bard ect, as a Scholar sub-class).
What I do not like is the clumbsy and vague way the Conan core book sets up Scholar creation, and the relative weakness of this class compared to other starting characters. I understand that becoming a competant caster takes years of study and practice, but presumably so does becoming an expert tracker, theif, or swordsman. I just hope that 2nd Ed clarifies some of these issues, and rescues early level scholars from becoming potential punching bags.
The supliments have helped to a degree, but not as much as I hoped. (I broke down and bought Skelos and Finest since entering this discussion).
Well, the horror that sorcery causes in people should give even starting casters some edge against human enemies. I hope the second edition addresses this somehow. Although it is possible to do just through roleplaying, rules for that would be great too.
Other than that, I must say that some of the sorcery styles make sorcerers formidable from the first level onwards. Summon beast is pretty strong and entrance can freeze a same level fighter on his tracks easily.
Other than that, I must say that some of the sorcery styles make sorcerers formidable from the first level onwards. Summon beast is pretty strong and entrance can freeze a same level fighter on his tracks easily.
There are certainly some combat limitations, but I don't find low level scholars weak at all. Even putting aside the crazy power of defensive blast, the genre seems suited to putting to use all of those knowledge skill ranks they get.
Conan seems to be suited to avoiding combat and killing anything you have to fight as quickly as possible. There's lots of character builds that aren't suited to the latter (most of which don't get played for the obvious reason that people like to be good at combat) but help with the former.
An interesting problem is that Will saves tend to suck (much more so if you don't have a code of honor), so scholars will make the terror checks that others might not and be faced with a difficult combat situation since a lot of sorcery isn't combat oriented.
BTW, if they got something like 4 skill ranks instead of 2 for foregoing more sorcery, it would be a lot more interesting to do nonsorcerous scholars.
Conan seems to be suited to avoiding combat and killing anything you have to fight as quickly as possible. There's lots of character builds that aren't suited to the latter (most of which don't get played for the obvious reason that people like to be good at combat) but help with the former.
An interesting problem is that Will saves tend to suck (much more so if you don't have a code of honor), so scholars will make the terror checks that others might not and be faced with a difficult combat situation since a lot of sorcery isn't combat oriented.
BTW, if they got something like 4 skill ranks instead of 2 for foregoing more sorcery, it would be a lot more interesting to do nonsorcerous scholars.
