Refits
- Thread starter Da Boss
- Start date
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Da Boss said:
Yeah, cos its the naffest of naffness. :lol:
Methos5000
Mongoose
Im not a big fan of reinforced hull for the ISA either. The Victory can use it but it already has a huge amount of hit points especially once you factor in adaptive armor. And for Whitestars one extra hull point for a 1 point speed reduction isnt what I would consider a good "upgrade".
The Dilgar are punished with this upgrade too. Their damage is generally only a few points less than their crew and on top of it their slow assault ships cant benefit from the speed increase. so a Wahant could have a hull of 72 a crew value of 56 and a speed of 0. Not much use as an assault ship if it cant move. If the speed increase would have atleast been changed to +2 for fast attack and +1 for assault ships at least it could have potentially countered the effects of reinforced hull.
Im not saying get rid of it all together but there are fleet that definatly do not benefit from it.
Also how is Fast Loading Missiles an upgrade? It loses slow-loading but cuts the attack dice in half, which with some criticals makes them worse than the slow-loading ones. (ex. 4AD SL missiles become 2AD missiles. a 4-1 crit knocks SL missles to 3AD and non-SL become 1AD, your damage out put over two turns is reduced, not to mention they became more prone to being eaten up by interceptors.) It seems right now its more of a punishment because you are still firing the same number of AD over a 2 turn period your new missiles are just more at risk because of crits and interceptors.
I guess I always though refits should be something more terrifying I guess. If there is a ship on the table with fast loading 4 AD missiles and one with SL 4AD missiles, I am much more concerned about the fast loading missiles. But as it is, I would be less afraid of the fast loading missiles.
The Dilgar are punished with this upgrade too. Their damage is generally only a few points less than their crew and on top of it their slow assault ships cant benefit from the speed increase. so a Wahant could have a hull of 72 a crew value of 56 and a speed of 0. Not much use as an assault ship if it cant move. If the speed increase would have atleast been changed to +2 for fast attack and +1 for assault ships at least it could have potentially countered the effects of reinforced hull.
Im not saying get rid of it all together but there are fleet that definatly do not benefit from it.
Also how is Fast Loading Missiles an upgrade? It loses slow-loading but cuts the attack dice in half, which with some criticals makes them worse than the slow-loading ones. (ex. 4AD SL missiles become 2AD missiles. a 4-1 crit knocks SL missles to 3AD and non-SL become 1AD, your damage out put over two turns is reduced, not to mention they became more prone to being eaten up by interceptors.) It seems right now its more of a punishment because you are still firing the same number of AD over a 2 turn period your new missiles are just more at risk because of crits and interceptors.
I guess I always though refits should be something more terrifying I guess. If there is a ship on the table with fast loading 4 AD missiles and one with SL 4AD missiles, I am much more concerned about the fast loading missiles. But as it is, I would be less afraid of the fast loading missiles.
Gargoyle117
Mongoose
I'm new to the game, and am only familiar with the ISA, but I agree with Methos.
The ISA Reinforced Hull refit is much more of a penalty than it is a benefit. It does not seem to fit with the tactics and theme of the fleet. Whenever this refit comes up, I re-roll it. If forced to take it, I would blow the xp and skip taking the refit. There is no way a Whitestar captain would allow that refit to be applied to his ship.
Aside from that my only complaint would be that "Now You See Me..." and "The Rangers" are two different Duties with the exact same result, +2 on the next Campaign turn.
The ISA Reinforced Hull refit is much more of a penalty than it is a benefit. It does not seem to fit with the tactics and theme of the fleet. Whenever this refit comes up, I re-roll it. If forced to take it, I would blow the xp and skip taking the refit. There is no way a Whitestar captain would allow that refit to be applied to his ship.
Aside from that my only complaint would be that "Now You See Me..." and "The Rangers" are two different Duties with the exact same result, +2 on the next Campaign turn.
Commador Q
Mongoose
i think the problem is that the refits are supposed to be good but not over powered. so a refitted ship will be better than an unrefitted one, but a raid level ship with one or two refits isn't better than a battle level ship (generally speeking).
additionally, i think some of them make sence from a fluff standpoint (it makes perfect sence to overhaul a basic ship and end up with a varient), but in game terms it's not always beneficial (the varients are often less efficent than the main designe, or at least there tends to be a "best" varient more often than not).
additionally, i think some of them make sence from a fluff standpoint (it makes perfect sence to overhaul a basic ship and end up with a varient), but in game terms it's not always beneficial (the varients are often less efficent than the main designe, or at least there tends to be a "best" varient more often than not).
CZuschlag
Mongoose
No, the refit tables don't really match up right. Consider the "3" result. I'm working from memory, (I'm at work and don't have my books with me), but the 3, I think, installs a small Mass Driver (or upgrades an existing one) for the Dilgar.
Has anyone actually ever fired one of these things against a ship more than once in a game? I've played the Dilgar quite a lot, and it happened exactly once. Let's face it -- Mass Drivers are almost never fired. Does anyone actualy care about this refit?
On the other end of the spectrum, consider the Drakh "3", which I distinctly remember -- Self-Repair (a ship gets Self-Repair 1d6). What a huge difference!
Not all tables are remotely equal.
EDIT: Moved edit to its own post. I've actually found a Refit that may be worse than the Narn refit of naffness.
Has anyone actually ever fired one of these things against a ship more than once in a game? I've played the Dilgar quite a lot, and it happened exactly once. Let's face it -- Mass Drivers are almost never fired. Does anyone actualy care about this refit?
On the other end of the spectrum, consider the Drakh "3", which I distinctly remember -- Self-Repair (a ship gets Self-Repair 1d6). What a huge difference!
Not all tables are remotely equal.
EDIT: Moved edit to its own post. I've actually found a Refit that may be worse than the Narn refit of naffness.
Maybe a good change for that Narn Refit of Naffness would be that it only removes refits that cannot be applied to that ship, so if you had the Hanger Conversion, Supercharged Thrusters and Superior Helm control refits on a G'Quan, then refitted the ship to a G'Quonth, you would lose the Hanger (cos the G'Quonth has no flights of craft) but keep the rest.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Finally got home. Checked the Dilgar book, and I was wrong, the Mass Drivers are the "5" Dilgar result. However, the "3" is City Levelers, which isn't any better. It upgrades pulsars to Double Damage, but half the number of dice. This is actually a downgrade, as the pulsars give up 50 of the dice, but 1/6 of the time already got the Double Damage property anyways through Masters of Destruction. Your net damage ship quality actually goes DOWN. What a SPECTACULARLY stupid Refit! Some days, I think absolutely no one analyzes these Refits and Duties tables. The Narn refit may be bad because you lose any refits you've since gotten ; here, you can get a ship that is worse than something fresh off the assembly line! Stunning!
Edit -- it's not so bad, I found a way on certain ships that you can hide your self-crippling. You could change your Virus Bomb Racks on the Wahant, Mankhat or Rohric. Everything else has only Pulsars as single-damage weaponry, so you're kinda screwed.
Edit -- it's not so bad, I found a way on certain ships that you can hide your self-crippling. You could change your Virus Bomb Racks on the Wahant, Mankhat or Rohric. Everything else has only Pulsars as single-damage weaponry, so you're kinda screwed.
