Redundancy - what happened?
- Thread starter animus
- Start date
I think Redundancy is the best idea for the game to come down the pike in a long time. I'd playtest it but my playmate 
is gone. I'd love to hear more about how it plays. I plan on using it when I get another group up and think Mongoose should really consider this idea in V2 if it resembles V1 at all.
Which way were we leaning
Patrol & Skirmish = Redundancy 0
Raid = Redundancy 1
Battle = Redundancy 2
War = Redundency 3
Armageddon = Redundancy 4
or
Patrol & Skirmish = Redundancy 0
Raid & Battle = Redundancy 1
War = Redundancy 2
Armageddon = Redundancy 3
This is good to go right now but could even be used to tweak the races into balance later on. For example, I was thinking about giving the Narn an extra point to toughen them up or taking one away from the Raiders.
Also down the line, some weapons could ignore redundancy as another weapon trait or perhaps only in certain circumstances, say a precise weapon fired 6 inches or less would ignore redundancy. Of course this complicates the game, but it's something to think about in the next edition.
In the meantime, I'm going with it because the big ships need something. Let's see more playtesting!
is gone. I'd love to hear more about how it plays. I plan on using it when I get another group up and think Mongoose should really consider this idea in V2 if it resembles V1 at all.Which way were we leaning
Patrol & Skirmish = Redundancy 0
Raid = Redundancy 1
Battle = Redundancy 2
War = Redundency 3
Armageddon = Redundancy 4
or
Patrol & Skirmish = Redundancy 0
Raid & Battle = Redundancy 1
War = Redundancy 2
Armageddon = Redundancy 3
This is good to go right now but could even be used to tweak the races into balance later on. For example, I was thinking about giving the Narn an extra point to toughen them up or taking one away from the Raiders.
Also down the line, some weapons could ignore redundancy as another weapon trait or perhaps only in certain circumstances, say a precise weapon fired 6 inches or less would ignore redundancy. Of course this complicates the game, but it's something to think about in the next edition.
In the meantime, I'm going with it because the big ships need something. Let's see more playtesting!
Animus, I like the idea in principle and your second option presents just enough effect as to be useful without making such ships immune to criticals.
If you have Redundancy work in the same way as for Ancients but with the other races having a limited number of times for it to be used (and it has to be on the first criticals suffered, not a choice after you've seen the rolls) then I'd be fully in support of it.
If you have Redundancy work in the same way as for Ancients but with the other races having a limited number of times for it to be used (and it has to be on the first criticals suffered, not a choice after you've seen the rolls) then I'd be fully in support of it.
I'm way adverse to any CQ for this - that's Damage Control. Fluff-wise ,the redundancy trait was for work done before the battle even began. It just needs to happen - no extra dice.
Absolutely, you can't pick and choose what criticals are saved by redundancy -first come, first serve.
I don't understand the ancients reference - are there some rules for them that I don't understand? The Vorlons and Shadows don't ever suffer from criticals do they? Is there some new rule in Armageddon I don't know?
Absolutely, you can't pick and choose what criticals are saved by redundancy -first come, first serve.
I don't understand the ancients reference - are there some rules for them that I don't understand? The Vorlons and Shadows don't ever suffer from criticals do they? Is there some new rule in Armageddon I don't know?
the 1st ones take crits as normal but repair them in the end phase. i would prefer that for redundacy so that it resembles repatching systems through redundant systems.
my idea was to go a step further and use redundancy as free repairs so you still have to go that extra turn with the crits whilst your engineers repatch everything but then you get to use a redundancy to automatically repair stuff.
my idea was to go a step further and use redundancy as free repairs so you still have to go that extra turn with the crits whilst your engineers repatch everything but then you get to use a redundancy to automatically repair stuff.
Captain Kremmen
Mongoose
katadder said:
I think I llike the 1st ones idea. Leaving you with the crits for a turn still makes them quite serious and downgrades the redundancy thing to the point you wonder if it's worth bothering with....
Kremmen
I'm not sure I understand how the ancients work. They get a critical hit and can repair it the turn they get it. Is that how it works? Is that the difference? Is their repair automatic?
Nevertheless, I've always liked being able to be repair critical hits the turn they arrive.
But are we now talking now about a "Free Damage Control" pass? This might work, but it would allow the player to choose what gets fixed:
Captain to crew: "Patch the engines together - ignore the port side batteries, we'll get to those later - JUST GET US MOVING!"
Of course this is just what Damage Control does now, so I see little advantage in it.
What we're trying to do is save the big ships from the little ships - at least for a while.
Nevertheless, I've always liked being able to be repair critical hits the turn they arrive.
But are we now talking now about a "Free Damage Control" pass? This might work, but it would allow the player to choose what gets fixed:
Captain to crew: "Patch the engines together - ignore the port side batteries, we'll get to those later - JUST GET US MOVING!"
Of course this is just what Damage Control does now, so I see little advantage in it.
What we're trying to do is save the big ships from the little ships - at least for a while.
Ancients (not counting Shadows and Vorlons) suffer criticals but get to automatically repair the effects (not the damage) in the repair phase at the end of the same turn - it's also called Redundancy! If you keep this same mechanism (for sake of simplicity, I also like the rule) but limit the number of times it can be used then that would suit me fine. I don't want the change to be overpowering but I do want to help reduce the chances of a fluke critical off the first hit or two a (big) ship takes.animus said:
Arghhh... it's called Redundancy?! :shock:
Well it's still a good idea - now we need a better name for it. "Bulk"? "Secondaries"?
The idea has always been to have a limited number of times one could stop a critical. (ancients probably working differently) It was based so Priority Level and I think that's peachy. I've had my Warlock crippled first turn by a stupid Minbari flicking a booger at it. ...Damn Minbari boogers.... :x
So the rule now with ancients is that they get criticaled but only for the turn it happens? Automatic repair? CQ check? I take it unlimited repairs are allowed.
Well it's still a good idea - now we need a better name for it. "Bulk"? "Secondaries"?
The idea has always been to have a limited number of times one could stop a critical. (ancients probably working differently) It was based so Priority Level and I think that's peachy. I've had my Warlock crippled first turn by a stupid Minbari flicking a booger at it. ...Damn Minbari boogers.... :x
So the rule now with ancients is that they get criticaled but only for the turn it happens? Automatic repair? CQ check? I take it unlimited repairs are allowed.
the ancients take crits as normal so they can effect them that turn if they havent fired yet, but with no crew crew crits are useless. any crits taken are automatically repaired in the end phase of the tunr they took them. every turn this happens automatically. oh and this also includes vital system crits.
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Have to say I don't like the idea, no offence to those that do.
Part of the unique feel of ACTA is that nothing is ever hopeless because of the criticals. it is possible for your hero in his Frazi fighter and a couple of his pals to get the lucky critical that stops the Centauri Octurion in it's tracks, allowing the rest of the fleet to escape. It's pretty unlikely to get the one critical you need to save the day, however at least it can happen.
If you start giving the large ships an immunity to critical hits, even if only the first few, it will make them invulnerable to tiny ships and fighters, and I thought fighters were getting a boost in Armageddon anyway because they were too weak.
Believe me, I know how galling it can be to have a big ship go down to a lucky/unlucky critical. Large alliance battle we played recently the Narn Bin'Tak guarding our port flank took a catastrophic ammo explosion, preventing it from firing. What was the kicker was that this was from a Centauri Sulust that was about to be vaporised, and was the first shot of the game. The poor Bin'Tak then proceded to take all the enemies fire for the next three turns before it died, including additional criticals that prevented it moving and prevented any damage control.
Even this didn't convince me that redundancy would be a good thing.
Part of the unique feel of ACTA is that nothing is ever hopeless because of the criticals. it is possible for your hero in his Frazi fighter and a couple of his pals to get the lucky critical that stops the Centauri Octurion in it's tracks, allowing the rest of the fleet to escape. It's pretty unlikely to get the one critical you need to save the day, however at least it can happen.
If you start giving the large ships an immunity to critical hits, even if only the first few, it will make them invulnerable to tiny ships and fighters, and I thought fighters were getting a boost in Armageddon anyway because they were too weak.
Believe me, I know how galling it can be to have a big ship go down to a lucky/unlucky critical. Large alliance battle we played recently the Narn Bin'Tak guarding our port flank took a catastrophic ammo explosion, preventing it from firing. What was the kicker was that this was from a Centauri Sulust that was about to be vaporised, and was the first shot of the game. The poor Bin'Tak then proceded to take all the enemies fire for the next three turns before it died, including additional criticals that prevented it moving and prevented any damage control.
Even this didn't convince me that redundancy would be a good thing.
NaM, I see your point, but I think something has to give or no one will ever field a big ship. I never take ships above a PL because of the crit problems and I seldom take more than 1 of the PL I'm playing - just not a good investment.
Granted a fighter might get lucky and score a vital systems crit hit, but a Dreadnaught will have redundant vital systems, don't you think? They're practically space stations - and they don't suffer criticals.
I think this is a great idea.
Granted a fighter might get lucky and score a vital systems crit hit, but a Dreadnaught will have redundant vital systems, don't you think? They're practically space stations - and they don't suffer criticals.
I think this is a great idea.
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Animus: Think it might be the way your group plays, or maybe it's the way our group plays, that's making the difference. We generally concentrate on the larger ships within the fleets, their massed firepower making small ships evaporate before they can do significant damage. Often the smaller ships are relying upon the lucky critical to open a gap in the big ship gunline early enough to survive.
For us, this would make the large ships unbeatable. guess it's different playing styles.
For us, this would make the large ships unbeatable. guess it's different playing styles.
Big supporter of the original idea behind redundancy. (ie one of more critical 'free' hits.)
It still did not feel quite right to me in some ways, but much better than anything else I have seen. As it stands right now Nightmares scenario of the Bin'Tak is simply not that uncommon. And his heroic Frazi pilot that gets the crit on the Octurian never results in the rest of the fleet getting away it results in the rest of the fleet turning back and gutting the stupid whale of scrap metal to be.
With the new Arm breakdowns in particular, big ships are in even more danger given the relative numbers of smaller ships we are going to see. Espescially in the new larger squadrons. Defenses were in no way increased but the number of opponents has increased and or been concentrated. Being able to shrug off a couple of crits will allow an Octurian to be a threat long enough that you really need those frazis to try to get the super critical near the end of a battle when you trying to flee. By then redundancy should be burned through.
Ripple
It still did not feel quite right to me in some ways, but much better than anything else I have seen. As it stands right now Nightmares scenario of the Bin'Tak is simply not that uncommon. And his heroic Frazi pilot that gets the crit on the Octurian never results in the rest of the fleet getting away it results in the rest of the fleet turning back and gutting the stupid whale of scrap metal to be.
With the new Arm breakdowns in particular, big ships are in even more danger given the relative numbers of smaller ships we are going to see. Espescially in the new larger squadrons. Defenses were in no way increased but the number of opponents has increased and or been concentrated. Being able to shrug off a couple of crits will allow an Octurian to be a threat long enough that you really need those frazis to try to get the super critical near the end of a battle when you trying to flee. By then redundancy should be burned through.
Ripple
We need more playtesting.
If you have a group, give it a try - seriously. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just trying to figure out if it's plausible. It looks good on paper, but until people test it, we'll never know.
This is a rare game with a rare group of fans who are in a position to actually impact the game with the opinions and testing. (If only Mongoose had let a few of us proof-read their books, think how much better we'd all be :roll: )
Maybe we need the Vassal players to try it out.
If you have a group, give it a try - seriously. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just trying to figure out if it's plausible. It looks good on paper, but until people test it, we'll never know.
This is a rare game with a rare group of fans who are in a position to actually impact the game with the opinions and testing. (If only Mongoose had let a few of us proof-read their books, think how much better we'd all be :roll: )
Maybe we need the Vassal players to try it out.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
animus said:
Actually it's called Redundant Systems
LBH
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
I quite like the general idea of this, however I can see it being a real balance issue. A multitude of smaller ships will indeed cause more crits, but will generally NEED them - they won't cause much damage, and can generally be swatted aside easily by bigger ships. So the game becomes one of swatting the smaller ships in time to deal with the major, bigger, threats. Give larger ships a greater immunity to crits, and you make them less vulnerable to EVERY ship, large or small. Essentially you ramp up the power level of the entire fleet.
While I have enough playtesting on my hands already, I'd like to see the result of this.
Wulf
While I have enough playtesting on my hands already, I'd like to see the result of this.
Wulf
