Random Thoughts: One Ship Fleets

[locarno24]

I was just having a flick through the rulebook, and I was wondering if anyone had ever tried to use a single-ship fleet?

I know that people will speak at length about how the swarm is almost invariably better, but I was hoping to give it a try at some point.

With decent sized games often being 5 point battle-priority affairs, I noticed (which is what started this off) that an armageddon-priority ship with an admiral aboard (which bizarrely is cheaper option for an armageddon priority ship than for a war priority ship) fills the five points exactly - which is unusual as the doubling series usually means that you end up with an even number of points.

In addition, whilst a warship with an admiral is probably not worth 2 war points, an armageddon level ship with an admiral is more believable as being worth 1.25 armageddon points - which might help to make up for the weakness of armageddon ships.

Looking through the books, the Armageddon ships that jump out at me are:

1) The Victory-class destroyer (the ISA version gets +1 CQ over the EA crewed Excalibur due to Rangers for no drawback that I can see)

2) The Neroon-class Heavy Warcruiser (since it's a gunship and fleet carrier in one vessel, and well suited to engage several battleships simultaneously)

3) The Ancient Shadow Ship for sheer malevolent class

5) The Nemesis-class advanced destroyer (I know it's weak but I keep looking at how pretty the model is! Damn it, it looks cool!)

The others I just don't like the models. Not that there actually is a neroon model but Minbari are generically pretty and I'm sure something could be done.



Anyway, the thoughts that occured were:

1) I can't find any reference to the Vorlons and Shadows not being allowed admirals. Is there one?

2) The careful choice of Admiral Traits will probably decide the fleet's effectiveness. I do have the advantage that a 5-point battle fleet of one armageddon-priority ship with an admiral drops 40 points (30 + 10 respectively), giving me a good starting advantage over another fleet. On top of this, the obvious first pick is The Master Plan, which basically translates to double victory points for anything other than kills by fighters.

The other traits I'm not so sure about, and I guess would depend on the ship. With criticals being the achilles heel, for the Victory or Neroon I'd love to improve the odds of repair, so Inspirational Leader gives me a +1 on repair rolls along with other checks - which is cumulative with Rangers, so destroyed systems on a Victory would come back up on a 3+. It'd also assist a Victory's Come about! checks to keep the Neutron lasers pointed the right way - not, of course, a problem the Neroon has.

The Victory and Neroon rack up (between Command and fleet base initiative) a healthy +5 and +6 respectively, so initiative boosts, whilst nice, aren't exactly needed. Inspired Command and/or Meticulous Planner would be nice, but feel a bit of a waste.

With the Neroon's impressive fighter wing and Fleet Carrier, Top Gun jumps out as a nasty bonus - take Tishats and you have fighters with a frankly ridiculous +6 net dogfight score, meaning normal fleet fighters frankly haven't a prayer.

I'm tempted just to say go with Lucky - two rerolls up your sleeve could stop that vital systems critical getting through, which is often the death knell for a high-priority ship.




Victory-class Destroyer, Admiral (The Master Plan, Lucky, Inspirational Leader)

Neroon-class Heavy Warcruiser, Alyt (The Master Plan, Inspirational Leader, Top Gun)




The Nemesis-class is a bit more intriguing. With its boresight main gun and the lack of a command bonus (why? The Warlock hull - which this is supposedly an improved version of - has one) makes an initiative bonus doubly important, so Inspired Command is almost a default. Inspirational Leader, once again, gives +1 CQ for repairs and come about checks (must keep forward arc on target!) and now with self-repairing as well, criticals repair on a frankly ridiculous 2+ (automatic repair under 'all hands on deck!'). Fighter-wise, I'd just have to trust the Shadowfuries and the option of Intensify Defensive Fire! to ward off attackers.

Nemesis-class Advanced Destroyer, Admiral (The Master Plan, Inspired Command, Inspirational Leader)



The shadow ship......damn. No idea. Obviously The Master Plan again, but with Redundant Systems and virtually no special actions availible (or needed!) a crew quality bonus seems irrelevant.

Whilst the Ship has 6 fighter flights, Top Gun seems a waste as that still only gives them dogfight +1, meaning they still get had badly by starfuries.

Inspired Command gives a tempting and frankly insane +8 initiative, whilst Meticulous Planner would....well.....just don't bother rollling dice, ok?

Daft as it first looks, since the shadow ship is the only armageddon-priority vessel which lacks decent fighter protection, Defensive Skill might not be a bad plan as it might stop the ship being nibbled to death by cats.

Equally, Engineering Genius helps ensure that you can run away when doing the whole hit-and-run thing; no lucky critical can drop you below 8" speed if you drop the hammer and go at full tilt.

I can't decide.




Suggestions/Thoughts on the whole idea?

 

[Hash]

Invariably swarms beat bigger ships, the reason I know this because it was beat into me by Reaverman's Narn bat squad vs. my Shadow Ship.

Saying that we (Sentient Rabbits) had battles in the past (1st edition) where we pretty sure a single large ship (Vorlon Heavy Cruiser), could consistently beat 10 Sagittarius class EA...but that was way in the past

Of your fleets I would rate the Shadow Ship as viable (and even then I would much prefer terrain against a 5pt Battle swarm opponent to hopefully cut down his firing opportunities) given that:

a) Shadows tend to win initiative so might be able to shoot at least one ship.
b) Shadows have SM so are less likely to be so outmaneuvered they won't be able to turn to fire after the first few turns.
c) Redundancy. The most obvious reason why single ship fleets don't work well is a single lucky crit can take it out...of course redundancy guarantees that won't be true for long!

Re: Admiral traits (p44-45)...well if Shadows can have them (don't know of any reference where it says they can't) then I'd take:

* Lucky - the single best admiral trait, a single die roll can decide the course of the battle!
* Engineering Genius (woo hoo, never adrift!)

Then it would depend on who I was fighting, a fighter heavy opponent might merit Defensive Skill or Top Gun (woo +1 dogfight), a stealthy opponent would favour Analytical Mastermind.

EDIT: Sod that. I just re-read Master of Deception. Not only appropriate for shadows but you can force the enemy to target another ship! Shadow fighters are ships too Only once per battle but well worth it!

Sorry but "The Master Plan" is almost completely useless for a single ship fleet - If your opponent kills you, he wins completely regardless of victory points, if he doesn't kill you then whatever victory points you've earned will be enough!

 

[Locutus9956]

Sorry but "The Master Plan" is almost completely useless for a single ship fleet - If your opponent kills you, he wins completely regardless of victory points, if he doesn't kill you then whatever victory points you've earned will be enough!

You know... that is a very, very good point!

As for the old 1 point Armageddon vs swarms, well to be frank I've tried it several times but it, well it just doesn't work Not tried it with an admiral but in almost EVERY case the big ship has been critted to death in a turn or two.

The ones I'd give more than a snowballs chance in hell would have to be:

1- Drakh Amu Mothership - EASILY the best chance of any of the big ships by virtue of the fact that it CARRIES a small swarm fleet. However it's not really playing '1 Big ship vs the swarm' so should really be disqualified

2 - Shadow ship. Shields = less crits, SM = youll always be able to get a shot on SOMETHING at least. Self repairing = you cant get vital system critted out of the game permanently. On the other hand though you can get pinned by beam fire....

3 - Victory. Probably the toughest single ship in the game and most of its firepower is turreted. (the big guns may LOOK flashy but the real punch the ship is the 30ish AD of turreted doom it chucks out at mid-short range)

4 - The Neroon. Pray to the dice gods for your opponent to fail his stealth rolls otherwise your toast but its still a better chance than most other big ships.

5 - The Adira. High GEG can make it surprisingly good at soaking loads of small chunks of damage. Unfortunately the fact that crits ignore GEG stop it from REALLY being that useful as it makes no difference to being critted to death.

Ships I don't give even a tiny chance:

Psi Corps Nemesis. It's main weapon is boresighted meaning it MIGHT if its lucky get ONE shot as the fleets close and thats only if theres no terrain for the first ship that moves to hide behind, its secondaries are not up to taking on a fleet on its own. It has interceptors sure but thats still only gonna stop about 3 or 4 hits then its dogmeat.

Vorlon Heavy cruiser. Has horrific firepower and is very tough but its ALL forward arc and the ship is slow and not all that manueverable, it WILL kill a couple of ships as the fleets close but will probably never get to fire again after that. Even if its careful and sits right in a corner firing it will still probably just get critted to death.

Chavioki - Its well armed but relatively short ranged and also just doesnt have the shields to take the hits. It would get pwned frankly.

KaBinTak - Tough, heavily armed but again, relatively short ranged aside from the boresight (see comments regarding Chavioki and Nemesis).

So really all in all the only two that REALLY stand a chance are I still think the Drakh (which is really just a swarm fleet in disguise anyway) and the Shadows largely as theyre super maneuverable.

 

[Burger]

Also remember that in any scenario allowing hyperspace, Shadows can keep all their ships in hyperspace. Make sure to check the victory conditions though to check the scenario doesn't automatically end when no ships are left on-table (if it does then keep a Fighter at the back of the table). A Shadow Ship jumping in behind a fleet will pretty much always annihilate it, swarm or not!

A Victory with Sheridan is a pretty good choice. 2 special actions means you can do All Hands On Deck permanently, and basically repair all crits on a 2+ (look ma I'm an ancient! ). Just watch out for the No Special Action crits... ouch!

 

[Greg Smith]

A Victory with Sheridan is a pretty good choice. 2 special actions means you can do All Hands On Deck permanently, and basically repair all crits on a 2+ (look ma I'm an ancient! ).

But you still only get to fire one gun. (Not that the VCD's neutron lasers aren't effective!).

 

[Burger]

A Victory with Sheridan is a pretty good choice. 2 special actions means you can do All Hands On Deck permanently, and basically repair all crits on a 2+ (look ma I'm an ancient! ).

But you still only get to fire one gun. (Not that the VCD's neutron lasers aren't effective!).

Doh - oh yeah I was thinking of 1e, there was no such restriction. I did field Sheridan on a Victory once, in a 5pt War tournament, precisely for the permanent AHoD SA to negate the Big Ships main disadvantage. First shot: bridge hit, no special actions and can never be repaired :roll:

 

[Triggy]

The Master Plan actually is still worth it, so long as you are willing to flee your ship when you have enough VPs to win the game. A bit of a dirty tactic but it would actually work...

 

[locarno24]

The Master Plan actually is still worth it, so long as you are willing to flee your ship when you have enough VPs to win the game. A bit of a dirty tactic but it would actually work...

Certainly apropriate for the shadows. Well caught for other ships, though. I'd forgotten that you can never win with an enemy pyrric victory.



The nemesis is the weakest of the armageddon-priority ships anyway and I'm not debating that. I'm just tempted by it purely for looks. All its advantages over the basic Warlock hull are fairly subtle (+1 CQ, +1 on crit repair, better rather than more fighters, 2 extra missiles, Minibeam broadside, HEL), rather than overwhelming. Self-repairing, for example, doesn't really make much difference to its toughness in game, but it does mean that it should fight at full effect until destroyed (death by crew loss vs. damage means probably never crippled, which means flight computer should stay on line, which means never skeleton crewed either) and it's a bit better in a campaign as it repairs for free.


The problem, as noted, is that of all the armageddon-priority vessels, it's also the one with the most firepower tied up in a boresighted weapon, which you're unlikely to get many shots in with (if any) if playing it as a solo fleet.


A vorlon heavy cruiser with an Inspirational Leader aboard has a 50-50 chance of Come About! giving it a 90' turn. It's not agile but it's not as unwieldy as it might be. And, as noted, anything in front of it isn't going to be there after the shooting phase.

I would rate the Shadow Ship as viable

Not that you're biased, of course.... 8)

Master of Deception - a suitably devious plan, General Hash!
I always forget the whole 'fighter=ship' trick.
In fact a rather disgusting idea to redirect enemy heavy guns if you find yourself centrelined by...oh, let's say a Shantavi-class Heavy Battle Frigate? Of course if you pull it out of the bag and redirect something like a hail of pak plasma torpedos or a Victory's lightning cannon then you are probably entitled to spontaneously do the Happy Shadow Dance.



So - it more or less comes down to Shadow Ship, Victory and Neroon.
I shall give it a try and see how it goes.

 

[Burger]

Assuming the fight is 5pt Battle, to win then jump out, you'd surrender:

40/4 = 10 VPs (Armageddon+Battle) for tactical vithdrawl
5 VPs for holding ground

So enemy scores 15 VPs.

With the Master Plan, you'd only need to destroy one Battle level ship or 2 Raid, to get 20 VPs, and the win! Destroy 2 Battle ships and you've won by 25 VPs, a major victory.

Just don't try it in Space Superiority...

On a Shadow ship my othe admiral traits of choice would be defensive skill (to at least have a chance of killing fighters!) and analytical mastemind if facing Minbari, otherwise lucky. I can't see how engineering genius prevents adrift? Just stops speed being below half. You can be adrift at half speed quite happily.

 

[Greg Smith]

Just don't try it in Space Superiority...

Or Annihilation.

 

[CZuschlag]

You may be able to do it with the one-ship fleet, but it's not exactly one ship....

The Amu Mothership.

At 5 Battle, it's a frightful weapon on its own; you normally won't face too many ships that will take massive hunks out of it at a time, and its offensive capabilities are striking. Fill it out with several light ships, a DDF , 4 Light Raiders (I have an evil idea for these puppies!), and 6 Heavy Raiders.

Admiral: Lucky, Master of Deception, either Inspirational Leader or Revered Leader.

Master of Deception is the bad one here. You can force something big that has lined up on your DDF to shoot some Light Raider which has already Closed Blast Doors. Put these two orders together with Dodge, GEG, and so forth, and it's a nightmare to kill one of these things.

Lucky lets you troll for the good 6-* critical, and with all that precise, you can. You can also use it to prevent the bad Mothership critical, Engineering Crit.

The Mothership's weakness is that criticals stack up so fast. Inspirational leader is an attempt to get All Hands on Deck to repair criticals on anything but a 1. It also makes getting all your ships out more likely, as you only fail a Scramble on a 1, too. Actually, this isn't the best use of a slot, so, if you come up with something better, fire away. Revered Leader may be much better for things like Come About and crit repair rolls.

By the way, your initiative bonus? +7.

That's my best try.

If you want a nonswarmy version, take in the bay a Dra'Vash, 2 Heavies, and 2 Light Raiders, or even some CLs. No promises if this will work, but it's an awful lot of beam firepower, and killing the Dra'Vash with its GEG4 with the swarm is just brutal.

 

[Burger]

Amu is cheating

 

[CZuschlag]

Even if I just stock it with a Dra'Vash and 2 CLs?

You're no fun at all.

 

[Burger]

You can have it if you stuff its hangars full of spoo. One ship means one ship.

 

[lastbesthope]

You can have it if you stuff its hangars full of spoo. One ship means one ship.

Well technically it'd better be a ship without fighters then, since they qualify as ships these days..... :lol:

LBH

 

[wpngjstr]

If I was doing it I'd probably go with
Lucky- extra rerolls to reduce the number of crits taken
Inspirational leader-every little bit of help on my repair rolls/SAs...
The third choice would depend on opponant and ship:

If I know I'm playing against Minbari, Analytical Mastermind all the way

If I have fighters, Master of Deception has potential....(though it seems kinda "cheap"..."Honest, that fighter squadron is actually an Armageddon level warship"

Otherwise, Legendary tactician for 2 SA a turn-if I have a range advantage, then all stop plus say Close blast doors can help a lot early on

 

[LaranosTZ]

I think people underestimate the brivoki myself. It is a horrid, nasty, evil ship and is quite capable of handling a fairly large number of enemy ships by itself. I don't know what admiral traits would work best though, but I agree that something that doubles VPS might work if the scenario allows tactical withdrawls...and anything that negates or repairs crits would be good. The brivoki is a durable as hell ship, especially if you use the fighter escorts as interceptors.

 

[tschuma]

I agree with LaranosTZ. I watched a Brivioki gut a Sharlin on turn 1 and then as it's lasers were recharging on turn 2 destroy a Morshin. Granted there was some lucky die rolling, but 2 turns later and the Minbari were missing a War and Battle level ship.

Just which there was a model

 

[Tzarevitch]

Sorry but "The Master Plan" is almost completely useless for a single ship fleet - If your opponent kills you, he wins completely regardless of victory points, if he doesn't kill you then whatever victory points you've earned will be enough!

You know... that is a very, very good point!

As for the old 1 point Armageddon vs swarms, well to be frank I've tried it several times but it, well it just doesn't work Not tried it with an admiral but in almost EVERY case the big ship has been critted to death in a turn or two.

The ones I'd give more than a snowballs chance in hell would have to be:

1- Drakh Amu Mothership - EASILY the best chance of any of the big ships by virtue of the fact that it CARRIES a small swarm fleet. However it's not really playing '1 Big ship vs the swarm' so should really be disqualified

2 - Shadow ship. Shields = less crits, SM = youll always be able to get a shot on SOMETHING at least. Self repairing = you cant get vital system critted out of the game permanently. On the other hand though you can get pinned by beam fire....

3 - Victory. Probably the toughest single ship in the game and most of its firepower is turreted. (the big guns may LOOK flashy but the real punch the ship is the 30ish AD of turreted doom it chucks out at mid-short range)

4 - The Neroon. Pray to the dice gods for your opponent to fail his stealth rolls otherwise your toast but its still a better chance than most other big ships.

5 - The Adira. High GEG can make it surprisingly good at soaking loads of small chunks of damage. Unfortunately the fact that crits ignore GEG stop it from REALLY being that useful as it makes no difference to being critted to death.

Ships I don't give even a tiny chance:

Psi Corps Nemesis. It's main weapon is boresighted meaning it MIGHT if its lucky get ONE shot as the fleets close and thats only if theres no terrain for the first ship that moves to hide behind, its secondaries are not up to taking on a fleet on its own. It has interceptors sure but thats still only gonna stop about 3 or 4 hits then its dogmeat.

Vorlon Heavy cruiser. Has horrific firepower and is very tough but its ALL forward arc and the ship is slow and not all that manueverable, it WILL kill a couple of ships as the fleets close but will probably never get to fire again after that. Even if its careful and sits right in a corner firing it will still probably just get critted to death.

Chavioki - Its well armed but relatively short ranged and also just doesnt have the shields to take the hits. It would get pwned frankly.

KaBinTak - Tough, heavily armed but again, relatively short ranged aside from the boresight (see comments regarding Chavioki and Nemesis).

So really all in all the only two that REALLY stand a chance are I still think the Drakh (which is really just a swarm fleet in disguise anyway) and the Shadows largely as theyre super maneuverable.

Gotta disagree with a couple of these.

Ka'Bin'Tak is not short ranged. It has the longest ranged weapon in the game. 45" reloading e-mines will clear a lot of smaller ships. Its ion torps and heavy lasers all reach 30" and even the mag gun is 25". It also has a freakish amount of hp and crew and isn't dependent on traits for survival. (Speed crits are the thing that can really ruin your day though.) I would think this would be one of the better ones against a swarm fleet.

I don't see how a Neroon will survive a swarm. It has low hp and one of the worst defenses against a swarm. Stealth works best against smaller numbers of opponents where the luck of the dice can keep you alive. Swarms are the exact opposite by definition and any successful hit then makes stealth easier to breach. Swarm ships also tend to require close ranges, further degrading the stealth effect.

Beams also don't do well against swarms. They have lower initial die totals to roll and have restrictions on engaging targets too far away from each other, allowing you to engage fewer targets than a ship with a similar amount of pulse cannon fire. The re-rolling damage benefit also tends to overkill small targets and thus be completely wasted. Lastly, beams don't benefit at all from low hull.

Tzarevitch

 

[skavendan]

The Drakh Amu Mothership is a 1 ship fleet at least until she launchs!