Radar, pacific theatre

[Alexb83]

Okay, after a little foray in a pseudo-Solomon islands battle last night, we were playing with Fletcher class destroyers without any form of radar (whilst my Brooklyn class cruisers and Atlantas /did/ have radar). However having read up somewhat on the Tokyo Express and pre/post-express battles, it's clear that the Fletcher and her sister ships did indeed have radar.

Historically, what US ships could be expected to have either BuShips or BuOrds?

Edit - I note that VaS Fletchers do indeed have radar - but as an aside (perhaps this is only on Burger's shipviewer) why do they have an in-service date of 1930? The Fletcher wasn't even laid down until 1941...

 

[Burger]

Radar was added to the Fletcher on the VaS FAQ, and also "corrected" on the PDF version of VaS

 

[Alexb83]

Any info on the ISD? I'm still awaiting my copy of the VaS rules at the moment, don't know if this is a mistake from the book or in the shipviewer?

 

[Burger]

The PDF says 1930, and isn't updated in the FAQ... so for game purposes it stands. I can't tell you any real-world info cos I know nothing

 

[Alexb83]

145 of them were built between 1941 and 1944; lead ship was laid down 1941, commissioned '42.

 

[BuShips]

145 of them were built between 1941 and 1944; lead ship was laid down 1941, commissioned '42.

I would use 1942 in personal games, as this really needs to be corrected in the future and added to the FAQ. The date of 1930 is indeed a misfire. Good catch, Alexb83.

 

[Alexb83]

Limits your options a bit on games pre-42, but that's what I would do also. It's not as if there aren't plenty of other destroyer classes that fall into the gap between the WW1 builds and the Fletchers etc.

 

[BuShips]

Limits your options a bit on games pre-42, but that's what I would do also. It's not as if there aren't plenty of other destroyer classes that fall into the gap between the WW1 builds and the Fletchers etc.

It's not a big deal, as the stats for DD's in VaS do not have a great deal of detail and at least the error does allow for "Fletchers" to be proxies for those earlier destroyer classes that came after the Clemsons. Consider the typo to be an intentional "crutch" to get you by until later and more filled-out fleet lists are released :wink:.
BTW, U.S. destroyer classes between the Wickes/Clemsons were:

Farragut ( 8 ships built )
Porter ( 13 )
Mahan ( 18 )
Somers ( 5 )
Gridley ( 4 )
Bagley ( 8 )
Sims ( 12 )
Benham ( 10 )
Benson ( 24 )
Bristol ( 72 )

After the Fletcher (175 built) came the Sumner (70) and Gearing (105) classes. That was a lot of "Patrol" metal :wink:.

 

[Alexb83]

Gearing is really post-war, though. Gleaves should be in there somewhere...

 

[BuShips]

Gearing is really post-war, though. Gleaves should be in there somewhere...

Umm, two Gearings were commissioned in 1944 and 45 were commissioned before the end of the war so they work fine for VaS .
As for the Gleaves, some sources wrap them into the Benson class as "Benson/Gleaves". They are represented above with the name of Bristol (confusing, eh?). If you don't count the shape of the stacks then the two groups are otherwise identical. There were thirty Bensons (and not 24 as I mentioned earlier- website info varies and I really should not trust online info for this). There were 66 of your Gleaves class (according to wiki) instead of the 72 number above (different website, meh). The difference in the stacks btw was that the Benson had flat stack sides and the Gleaves had rounded stacks. Many years ago I would have been able to tell you that without looking it up first :roll:. I really should take the time and do this set of numbers based from Conway's 1922-1946 (I did that from memory, whoot!, lol).


"Some references identify the BENSON-GLEAVES class as the BENSON-LIVERMORE class. This was a designation for the FY 38-destroyer procurement coined by popular writers in compiling a number of fleet handbooks, for example James C. Fahey’s The Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet, volumes 1-4, 1939-45. Some handbooks further split the class, adding the Bristol (DD-453) as yet another division. According to tradition, however, a class is identified by the lead ship; hence BENSON-GLEAVES is the proper designation for this group of destroyers."

 

[BuShips]

Updates as per Conway's:

Farragut ( 8 ships built ) correct
Porter ( 13 ) Really, eight ships. The site was probably grouping in the five Somers to make it 13 ships. The Somers were indeed repeat Porters with one less funnel and four extra torpedoes.
Mahan ( 18 ) correct
Somers ( 5 ) correct
Gridley ( 4 ) correct
Bagley ( 8 ) correct
Sims ( 12 ) correct
Benham ( 10 ) correct
Benson ( 24 ) Bristol ( 72 )
These last two classes are better described as Benson/Gleaves. The total number of these adds up correct at 96 units (24 plus 72, above). So your Gleaves was hidden as a Benson (or even as a Livermore?, lol). Twenty-four of these last DDs were converted into DMS (minesweepers), 12 in 1944 and another 12 in 1945 (but these were too late to see action as DMS). Of all references, I trust Conway's. Btw, the site that I grabbed the quick info previously from was http://www.destroyersonline.com/usndd/ddtypes.htm?. You would think that a website with that name would be accurate, eh? :roll:

 

[Keith]

I don't think whether a ship did or did not carry a radar set is the primary concern is determining if it had the trait. Radar was almost totally new, at least in 1939. I believe that the Graf Spee had a set, but this was for all practical purposesuseless. Even the KGV battleships had trouble with theirs (mainly reliability).

The question should be how effective was it for each different class? I don't profess to have any answers.

 

[Alexb83]

True enough - but the Fletchers are noted explicitly in action reports as having been used as radar pickets from the time they entered into service.

 

[Poi]

I don't think whether a ship did or did not carry a radar set is the primary concern is determining if it had the trait.

I'd have to disagree here. Not having radar, would definitely preclude a ship from having the trait, so must be the primary concern. Once that is established, you then look at how good it was before deciding whjether to give the trait.

 

[BuShips]

That was why the FAQ quickly added the Fletcher's radar trait. The Fletchers were the first ships fitted with excellent SG radar at the time of their building. It just took awhile for the commanders to appreciate the value of it.