Questions on armageddon shadows

[Nightmares about Minbari]

OK, I've yet to get my hot and sweaty paws on my copy of Armageddon as yet, should be here in a few days. However from what I've seen from Burger's excellent ship viewer, I have a few questions for the designers regarding their choices with the shadows.

Firstly, if the shadow ship was considered weak pre-armageddon, how has this been improved by doubling it's cost and increasing it's damage capacity by less than double? My understanding is that it's gone from 150 damage to 250, which means that your now getting less than twice the damage for twice the cost.

Secondly the attack dice on the shadow ship have not been doubled, which you would have expected with the doubling of it's cost.

Thirdly, and this is much more fundermental. I understand that it's weapons have been changed from turret to forward arc? If this is the case, the core strength of the shadow ship, that of being able to move where ever it needs to so as to avoid enemy fire and still keep the enemy in arc has been taken away.

This is based on often needing to use the shadow speed doubling, which allows up to 90 degree turn at the beginning of the move, but no turn at the end. Not having the rules yet I don't know if this has changed or not?

If these changes have already been explained, or are explained in the book, can somebody point out where. if they haven't been explained already, can somebody do so please?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Firstly, if the shadow ship was considered weak pre-armageddon, how has this been improved by doubling it's cost and increasing it's damage capacity by less than double?

Secondly the attack dice on the shadow ship have not been doubled, which you would have expected with the doubling of it's cost.

Thirdly, and this is much more fundermental. I understand that it's weapons have been changed from turret to forward arc?

Regardless of the degree of changes, the new Shadow Ship is way, way better than it ever was before. The F-arc weaponry now accurately reflects it's appearance on the show, and there is no problem at all in one Shadow Ship defeating two War ships (although two War ships can usualy get the better of one Shadow if they work as a team and avoid that arc.

An Armageddon ship doesn't have to be worth double a War ship, it just has to be more powerful than any War ship. Shadows now are, I believe. One on one, there's no way I can see any War ship dealing out enough damage to defeat a Shadow Ship before the Shadow Ship destroys it.

Wulf

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

OK, it's Sunday evening and I'm half a bottle of red down, so maybe my braincells are just not firing tonight.

But can you clarrify what you just said? You seam to contradict yourself by first saying that a shadow ship can defeat two enemy war ships with no problem, then say that two war ships can defeat the shadow ship.

I think my brain is just not keeping up here.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

But can you clarrify what you just said? You seam to contradict yourself by first saying that a shadow ship can defeat two enemy war ships with no problem, then say that two war ships can defeat the shadow ship.

I said CAN, not WILL. Two War ships are a decently equal match for one Shadow. The Shadow can kill the War ships if the War ships allow it to gain positional advantage, and don't maneouvre to enclose the Shadow (with it's single arc). The War ships can win if they can prevent the Shadow firing on both at every opportunity, and furthermore can inflict sufficient damage to overcome it's regenerative ability. The Shadow loses it's T arc, so hs to be more careful in positioning after movement, and must choose it's targets before the firing sequence begins. But it becomes harder to kill than ever, and harder hitting than ever, and easily able to kill any one War ship. If the Shadow concentrates (not CaF!, it can't do that) on one target, any target, it will kill it. But meanwhile everyone else can pound on it.

Wulf

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Like I said, brain cells suffering from wine abuse.

You were saying it was balanced, either side being able to win under the right circumstances.

I guess I'm distressed by the change of arc on the shadow ship as it will make my previous tactics with them obsolete overnight, also invalidating my tactics article for them to some extent.

How do shadows deal with fighters now. In the past at least they had the turret arc to be able to shoot at the fighters surrounding them, even if not that effectively but now they cannot. The Vorlons appear to have a new technology for fighter defence (from what I've seen anyway), is there anything new in the box for the shadows, or are the scouts going to be even more vital for anti fighter escort duties?

 

[Voronesh]

Free fighters.

How much that solves some fighter problems i dont know, but it definitely helps.

And i think 2 WS carriers will play havoc with a shadow ships. But then again were talking plucked chickens here ^^.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Well if it ties up the enemy fighters in dogfights then they are not attacking the vulnerable shadow ships, so that's got to help.

By the way Voronesh, what is your icon/pic?

 

[Voronesh]

Thats the demonic warrior hero from Disciples 2. So it doesnt have anything to do with anything ACTA related. Unless JMS opens the gates of hell...which he partially did with the 3rd space aliens. but its not quite the same.

And yes i think the Shadow ship isnt a real armageddon lvl ship, but that counts for most Armageddon lvl stuff. The Nemesis and Neroon gripes have been here for as long as they were previewed in S&P......

 

[Right Hand of God]

The Shadow ship seems to have lost out to the Vorlon Heavy Cruiser, I can't understand how the VHC got such a powerful upgrade in Armageddon and yet the Shadow ship was given a halfhearted makeover at best, and now comes a poor second to the VHC.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

It looks like it might be a cool pic, if it was big enough to see it clearly.

Without trying out the new stat line for the shadow ship, I'm going to hold off on voicing opinions. Certainly it doesn't look like it's big or powerful enough, and the change in arcs will affect how it plays, but the stat line isn't everything.

I'm thinking of putting one up against three battle priority ships, which as I understand the Armageddon priority system rules would be a balanced match up (that right? 1 point Arm game, 3 battle = 1 arm point) and see if it can do a number on them.

Likewise my virdict on the other arm level ships is out till I see them in action. But they are a subject for another thread

 

[Greg Smith]

The Shadow ship's self repair has also doubled.

The Shadow ship's SM and high initiative means it should be able to get one target for its big gun but will probably be vulnerable to fire from other ships. Every so often it has to perform a get-the-heck-out-of-here 12" move and allow the self repair to do its job.

It is a trickier ship to use that it was, but it still was very powerful in the playtests I did with it.

 

[H]

I would post what my shadow playing buddy said, but I very much doubt I can use language like that on this forum.

 

[katadder]

well the shadows definately got the short end of the stick. they are not as good as 2 of the old shadow ships yet they cost that double price.

 

[Locutus9956]

to be honest though if you look at nearly ANY armageddon level ships theyre probably not as good as 2 war ships overall, but they DO have their advantages in being individually somewhat tougher than either of those 2 warships

 

[katadder]

thing is shadows were supposed to get the boost so they could be more like the show, vorlons got it but shadows i say give me the old style shadows.

 

[Goldritter]

I like the changes.
8 AD front TD/SAP/P/B is good enough to kill every ship equal or below Battle.

And the 250 Damage Points with HUll 6 and 4d6 Self Repair should be enough to hold the ship long enough alive to do much damage.

 

[katadder]

but 2 of the old shadow ships had 10AD of the same weapon with 300 damage adn 4d6 self repair between them, plus obviously 2 ships for init instead of one. only advantage new shadow ships get are the fighters, which cant dogfight worth a damn anyway so will be destroyed by most other peopples fighters.

 

[meglos]

iv got to say the shadows were supposed to have been upgraded from what my friends and i have seen that isnt the case giving them 2 extra dice self repair with a few extra ad and 100 extra wounds is ok but no were near what s called for given what the old stats were id rather take2 old stats than 1 new stat even tho id have to pay for the fighters

 

[Burger]

Its much better to make a comparison between the PL choices. That is, compare the old Ship to the new Hunter.

From SFOS:
War choice: damage goes from 150 damage to 175. Repair goes from 2d6 to 3d6. Weapon goes from 5AD T to 6AD F.
Raid choice: damage goes from 58 to 75.

From tourney stats:
War choice: damage goes from 200 to 175. Weapon goes from T to F.
Raid choice: same.

So, Shadows are better than they were in SFOS, but not as good as they were in the tourney list. They lose their Battle level choice, and gain an Armageddon.

 

[LordClinto]

Speeking of the Vorlon Heavy Cruiser a few replies ago.

Might be a little off-topic but has anyone pitted the various Armageddon ships against one another?

Over the weekend I played a couple varient games, pitted a Victory versus a VHC, 3 times. There was really no contest. Each time the Vic tried to get past the VHC for some flank shots (and to get out of the devastating VHC front arc), there would be a crit preventing Special Actions or reduced movement, while any crits to the VHC were healed by it's dominating 5d6 self-repair! Never had the opportunity to use the afterburners.

Additionally, fighters (other then the T'bolts missiles), were not an issue.
The Starfuries had maybe 1 turn of firing, 2 at the most before being destroyed by the flak or whatever!

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not complaining about the Vorlons but jeez it's near unstoppable in the front arc.