Question about gas giant piracy, escape windows, and playable intercept rules

I assumed the encounter itself should have some built-in balance, because the players did not necessarily have a chance to do all the recon beforehand.
The core rulebook also mentions GG refueling as a fast way to get to the next jump, or move undetected, or continue if there is no suitable starport. So I was expecting a somewhat faster cool minigame.

My apologies for beating this particular dead horse if you've heard it before, but this is a pretty classic difference between pre-2000ish games and post-2000ish games (or editions, as I personally date this to this advent of D&D 3e) - the idea that things would be balanced.

Or, another way to look at it, was that around that time people seemed to look at rules as a way to protect players from bad/abusive Refs/GMs. It was very much a shift to "Rules not Ruling" mostly as a response the rise of narrative story-telling games in the 90's (where the nature of those games and styles produced some heinous stuff in the guise of "dark, edgy realism" and players feeling like the only recourse was to vote with their feet) - and it's worth noting that we ended up coming full circle because that created games that can choke the fun out of play via tiresome and tedious mechanics and engines. The point is to create a balance between the two.

But Traveller, in all it's editions, is a game with an engine with an additional four distinct minigames (CharGen, WorldGen, ShipDesign, and SpecTrade) and none of them are particularly focused on fair (nor is combat of any sort, it's not RTG's Cyberpunk, but it's close). It's very much a place where Ref/GM fiat plays a very explicit role in what happens to the players because lots and lots of decisions are left to them (or to derive answers from the implied setting defined by the rules). Some people want more explicit mingames for situations, some people just want to wing it and let the Ref/GM decide. I think this mainly boils down to how the players trust the Ref/GM to be 'fair' and how much the Ref/GM trusts themselves to do it well (and trust the Players to handle the more organic and fluid nature of Rulings not Rules).

D.
 
As a DM my rule was always that the PCs COULD survive. Of course they sometimes seemed to assume that they could always WIN which wasn't the same thing. I'd apply the same thing with any game.

When running a game I'd never put in anything that you couldn't avoid that WOULD kill you. People who do so shouldn't be running games.
 
Also, in a functioning ship market I would expect many ships to be broadly similar, especially common cheap merchant hulls, so the asymmetry often has to come from position, surprise, readiness, or intent rather than wildly different ship stats. And likewise, desperate pirates are probably not showing up in Imperial super-fighters, right? Rather cheap, modified, stolen, obsolete, or poorly maintained ships?
With respect to this point, whilst merchants are broadly similar it doesn't take much modification for them to become significantly different.

For example, the default Class A trader is unarmed. It has two hardpoints for weapon systems but they are by default not populated. It is an expected modification for something to be fitted, but the choice could lead to wild asymmetry. If one ship has fitted a pulse laser and the other has fitted a beam laser then the beam laser ship can be hit without being able to hit back. If one ship has missiles then it may be able to hit the other ship before the target is even aware of the missile ship. With a Class A a single missile hit could be terminal as they will tend to cause a cumulative damage critical.

Pirates may be using captured merchantmen and they may not be able to upgrade the drives or armour easily (since it requires Class A or B port facilities) so keeping them stock is entirely plausible and to be expected. They should not be running with damage unless it was inflicted recently as damage can be repaired by the crew as long as they have time and spares (or if they have access to almost any starport). If a component was destroyed it cannot be repaired, but that ship likely isn't viable as a platform and the encounter won't happen.

You could randomise the weaponry of the pirate with a table and that will dictate the tactics they are using.

If they can hit with a missile from distance then they will probably announce that while the player ship is approaching (since it is much harder to turn around and flee) and call for surrender. The players then have the choice of complying or trying to run away (and weather the storm of fire in the interim). If the pirate only has a single launcher in the turret a good crew with weapons that can be turned to point defence might well be able to manage. If the pirate sees that it is just wasting missiles it will probably call off the attack since each shot represents a cost.

If they can hit with a pulse laser at distance then they will probably do the same as with a missile. However due to the shorter range and each shot being free, they might pursue more vigorously. Even if the player ship has a sand caster it won't necessarily be effective (especially in vector combat) and it has limited ammunition, all it can do is buy time. A pulse laser is probably the ideal weapon for this sort of situation and it has a good chance of punching through even respectable armour levels.

If they only have beam lasers then they will need to be quite close and will probably go for an ambush once refuelling has started. The sand caster here is likely to be more effective even in vector combat since a stern chase is likely. If you decide that the atmosphere attenuates the damage of a laser a sand caster might not even be necessary. If you are lucky the armour on even a Class A can entirely block a beam laser. This type of combat is likely to be the most fun to fight out as the player ship needs to take quite a few hits before it is going to be significantly impacted.

If they are entirely unarmed they may just sneak up and attempt to board (either by linking) or space walk (though in atmosphere this would be exciting to say the least). This is unlikely as a primary threat vector, but if at least one of the small craft is armed, then it might be the follow-up once you had surrendered. Once craft would approach to land boarders while the others stand-off to quickly punish any attempt to resist.

A low threat pirate encounter could be several (3+) small craft equipped with beam lasers on their firm point. Each will need to be detected, tracked and targeted separately which means player choice. A single hit on one will eliminate it allowing the players to quickly alter the odds (and give the referee a reason for the pirates to call off the attack). You are building in credibly balanced asymmetry as pirates are trading speed and dispersed attacks for individually weaker vessels. It is also credible that even hard up pirates are easily able to scrape up a few ships boat's or launches as they are cheap and ubiquitous. You can also have them piloted by mediocre crews who are also ubiquitous - every individual that fails to survive their first term in the Navy gets Gunner-0 Pilot-0. This is a credible source of disaffected, young tearaways looking to show "da man" they had the right stuff. A few ex-navy who washed out in their second term might even have come with a small-craft as a benefit. If a war has recently happened (or is in progress) you might have quite a lot of retired Navy types with no work (and possibly no home world). Drifter(Scavengers) or Scouts get Pilot-0 and Astrogation-0 and so are also particularly suited to operating close to Gas Giants.

If the small craft originate from an abandoned space station with a shipyard somewhere in system then you also have a later campaign option to smash the pirate base. If you want variety you can plunder the Small Craft Catalogue for ideas, but half the fun of being a referee is designing stuff and randomly cobbling together small craft can be an amusing exercise in itself. Vessels could be converted launches or dirt cheap asteroid weapons platforms with R-Drives.

If you place this base on a route the players need to use regularly then it will justify the amount of work you are putting into random gas giant encounters. The players have a chance to get the lie of the land and negotiate how they are going to minimise the risk. There may be an established "toll" - the pirates may claim ownership of the gas giant. They may attack randomly as each hunting pack is commanded by a pack leader who have wildly varying motivations. Some are just trying to survive and would prefer not to take life, some might be more keen to prove their tactical brilliance and will value a worthy opponent, some might be mentally unbalanced by their war experience and may be still fighting that war. Resourceful players may conduct some investigation to attempt to reduce the chance of a terminal encounter.

As a player I would much prefer there to be a reason for even "random" encounters.
 
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As another option if the gas giant has rings, you could seed the ring with many small asteroid fighters piloted by droids (or sophonts waiting in low berths). These could cost as little as around MCr1. They might not be pirates per se, but remnants of a refuelling interdiction policy. As the player ship approaches they will trigger the response of a random number of craft that happen to be in sensor range (strict emission discipline will trigger less attackers). Defenders will order the player to provide the authorisation code or leave. If they don't they will be assumed to be enemy craft and engaged. The Defenders will also broadcast a request for reinforcement from an SDB, but their support ships may not be there anymore (players may not know that).

The droids can be cheap and simple and their terms of engagement predetermined making them a scaleable opponent. The ships are disposable in the grand scheme of things but can be surprisingly tough. Players have options to learn the attack protocols, the authorisation code, avoid gas giants with rings or fight it out. Repeated visits to the same GG might also deplete the available defenders and reduce the number of responders over time, players might decide (or be hired) to conduct an intentional depletion exercise.

Again if there was a war every gas giant in the area of operations could be like this by default making the GG "piracy" thing a regular enough occurrence to make devising a procedure worth it.
 
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If you think about it, pirates would be enthusiastic users of high burn thrusters.

And if they like lurking around gas giants, fuel would be less of an issue.
 
When running a game I'd never put in anything that you couldn't avoid that WOULD kill you.
The only thing that should be guaranteed fatal is protracted bad choices, or one really stupid choice, on the part of a player (they know who they are).

"I've sent boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it; felt I owed it to them." - Judge Smails, Caddyshack
 
Going back to the original question of piracy during a refueling operation - it can be broken down to charts, or it can simply be a part of the game. Much will have to do with how you feel the refueling operation takes place. If a ship is required to do more than skim the very upper levels of the atmosphere, than a pirate "hiding" is going to be difficult since there is no place to hide. A ship lying doggo cannot obviously intercept a ship that is traveling at speed - at least not easily and sometimes not within reason (the book has the velocity of ships in an encounter reset to zero to allow for the encounter to take place - but if your players are deliberately holding on to their speed to make it impossible to HAVE an encounter, then you are opening yourself up to frustration).

However, if your view is that a ship must enter the clouds and refuel at only a few hundred KPH since it has scoops open, then it's possible for another ship to be lurking in the clouds to sneak up on it and engage with little to no (or possibly some) warning. This would obviously assume that ships doing refueling have limited sensor range, and ships hiding in the clouds would have much greater resistance to being detected in the first place. It would be nice for the game (i.e. publisher) to kind of set a standard for players/refs to have - and modify or ignore like any other rule - in order for such a thing to occur. That's not the case so you are left on your own or to look for what others may or may not have.

In some ways its far better to intercept on the way IN because that means the ship is low on fuel and can't jump away to escape the encounter. Though interception and boarding within the gas giants atmosphere presents a whole host of other issues (good and bad) to be resolved. It really comes down to the type of game you are wanting to play. If you like a cloak-and-dagger aspect, then sure, make it easier for ships to use the terrain to hide and possibly play a game of hide and seek with their pursuers. Or, if you prefer to play more at dice rolls, the hiding and evading is much harder and you leave it up to the die roll.

In either case you need to establish the background for your preference. IF you go with the hide and seek concept then you need to have a baseline explanation of the process and roughly what's allowed and what's going to elicit a "nope - no help to your ship" response to your players actions. And by having the explanation already handled you can share with your players on how it works and what is typically possible. In my experience most players will quickly begin poking holes in your carefully designed game because they are thinking in ways you never thought of think. Which is all part of the fun as I see it.
 
First you need to use it to get from Earth to Jupiter in the example if you are going to skim for fuel. Then of course it does appear to me to be the official standard. It also applies if you jump in and go directly to the gas giant from its 100 diameter limit to skim.

Doesn't do you a lot of good to get to the 100 diameter limit only to find that when you come out of jump your destination is behind you and you need much longer to get there then you would have if you just decelerated first.
What? I am sorry, I do not understand your point.
I was trying to say: you would not deaccelerate half way. You want to arrive at the gas giant with suitable speed left to slingshot around and skim, as opposed to arrive with zero speed, like you would when you try to land on a planet.

Going back to the original question of piracy during a refueling operation - it can be broken down to charts, or it can simply be a part of the game. Much will have to do with how you feel the refueling operation takes place. If a ship is required to do more than skim the very upper levels of the atmosphere, than a pirate "hiding" is going to be difficult since there is no place to hide. A ship lying doggo cannot obviously intercept a ship that is traveling at speed - at least not easily and sometimes not within reason (the book has the velocity of ships in an encounter reset to zero to allow for the encounter to take place - but if your players are deliberately holding on to their speed to make it impossible to HAVE an encounter, then you are opening yourself up to frustration).

However, if your view is that a ship must enter the clouds and refuel at only a few hundred KPH since it has scoops open, then it's possible for another ship to be lurking in the clouds to sneak up on it and engage with little to no (or possibly some) warning. This would obviously assume that ships doing refueling have limited sensor range, and ships hiding in the clouds would have much greater resistance to being detected in the first place. It would be nice for the game (i.e. publisher) to kind of set a standard for players/refs to have - and modify or ignore like any other rule - in order for such a thing to occur. That's not the case so you are left on your own or to look for what others may or may not have.

In some ways its far better to intercept on the way IN because that means the ship is low on fuel and can't jump away to escape the encounter. Though interception and boarding within the gas giants atmosphere presents a whole host of other issues (good and bad) to be resolved. It really comes down to the type of game you are wanting to play. If you like a cloak-and-dagger aspect, then sure, make it easier for ships to use the terrain to hide and possibly play a game of hide and seek with their pursuers. Or, if you prefer to play more at dice rolls, the hiding and evading is much harder and you leave it up to the die roll.

In either case you need to establish the background for your preference. IF you go with the hide and seek concept then you need to have a baseline explanation of the process and roughly what's allowed and what's going to elicit a "nope - no help to your ship" response to your players actions. And by having the explanation already handled you can share with your players on how it works and what is typically possible. In my experience most players will quickly begin poking holes in your carefully designed game because they are thinking in ways you never thought of think. Which is all part of the fun as I see it.
Yes, I fully agree. I was reading the old TAS journals and saw flow charts and procedures for mining asteroids. Of course, one does not have to follow them, it's just nice to get a baseline or inspiration from something that people have play tested. I was hoping for something similar for GG refuelling. :)
 
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Hiding in the clouds sounds like a fool's errand to me. The smart pirates might land on a suitable moon and make themselves quiet.

Refuelling takes a while, so they just have to wait for an ambush opportunity before breaking cover...
 
My apologies for beating this particular dead horse if you've heard it before, but this is a pretty classic difference between pre-2000ish games and post-2000ish games (or editions, as I personally date this to this advent of D&D 3e) - the idea that things would be balanced.

Or, another way to look at it, was that around that time people seemed to look at rules as a way to protect players from bad/abusive Refs/GMs. It was very much a shift to "Rules not Ruling" mostly as a response the rise of narrative story-telling games in the 90's (where the nature of those games and styles produced some heinous stuff in the guise of "dark, edgy realism" and players feeling like the only recourse was to vote with their feet) - and it's worth noting that we ended up coming full circle because that created games that can choke the fun out of play via tiresome and tedious mechanics and engines. The point is to create a balance between the two.

But Traveller, in all it's editions, is a game with an engine with an additional four distinct minigames (CharGen, WorldGen, ShipDesign, and SpecTrade) and none of them are particularly focused on fair (nor is combat of any sort, it's not RTG's Cyberpunk, but it's close). It's very much a place where Ref/GM fiat plays a very explicit role in what happens to the players because lots and lots of decisions are left to them (or to derive answers from the implied setting defined by the rules). Some people want more explicit mingames for situations, some people just want to wing it and let the Ref/GM decide. I think this mainly boils down to how the players trust the Ref/GM to be 'fair' and how much the Ref/GM trusts themselves to do it well (and trust the Players to handle the more organic and fluid nature of Rulings not Rules).

D.

Thank you, this meta-game analysis is fascinating. As a new Referee, it is very useful to learn not only the rules, but also the assumptions behind older Traveller-style play.

In my first few games, I very much did not want to kill the players. At the same time, I also do not want them to feel untouchable. So what I am looking for is not really "balance" in the tactical-combat sense, but a dangerous situation that feels credible, gives the players meaningful choices, and can hurt them badly, but ideally, without turning into "the ship explodes, campaign over."
That is where the gas giant problem came from for me. My PCs are currently on the run, so a sneaky wilderness refuelling stop seemed perfect: avoid the busy starport, keep moving, and accept some risk. But when I looked at the 100D escape situation in purely RAW movement/combat terms, I suddenly imagined pirates having an enormous number of rounds to shoot at them, which sounded less like a tense scene and more like an accidental TPK machine.
So I think I am slowly learning the lesson here: I probably need to frame the encounter around situation, warning, intent, terrain, morale, and consequences, rather than expecting the movement rules alone to produce a playable scene.

With respect to this point, whilst merchants are broadly similar it doesn't take much modification for them to become significantly different.

For example, the default Class A trader is unarmed. It has two hardpoints for weapon systems but they are by default not populated. It is an expected modification for something to be fitted, but the choice could lead to wild asymmetry. If one ship has fitted a pulse laser and the other has fitted a beam laser then the beam laser ship can be hit without being able to hit back. If one ship has missiles then it may be able to hit the other ship before the target is even aware of the missile ship. With a Class A a single missile hit could be terminal as they will tend to cause a cumulative damage critical.

Pirates may be using captured merchantmen and they may not be able to upgrade the drives or armour easily (since it requires Class A or B port facilities) so keeping them stock is entirely plausible and to be expected. They should not be running with damage unless it was inflicted recently as damage can be repaired by the crew as long as they have time and spares (or if they have access to almost any starport). If a component was destroyed it cannot be repaired, but that ship likely isn't viable as a platform and the encounter won't happen.

You could randomise the weaponry of the pirate with a table and that will dictate the tactics they are using.

If they can hit with a missile from distance then they will probably announce that while the player ship is approaching (since it is much harder to turn around and flee) and call for surrender. The players then have the choice of complying or trying to run away (and weather the storm of fire in the interim). If the pirate only has a single launcher in the turret a good crew with weapons that can be turned to point defence might well be able to manage. If the pirate sees that it is just wasting missiles it will probably call off the attack since each shot represents a cost.

If they can hit with a pulse laser at distance then they will probably do the same as with a missile. However due to the shorter range and each shot being free, they might pursue more vigorously. Even if the player ship has a sand caster it won't necessarily be effective (especially in vector combat) and it has limited ammunition, all it can do is buy time. A pulse laser is probably the ideal weapon for this sort of situation and it has a good chance of punching through even respectable armour levels.

If they only have beam lasers then they will need to be quite close and will probably go for an ambush once refuelling has started. The sand caster here is likely to be more effective even in vector combat since a stern chase is likely. If you decide that the atmosphere attenuates the damage of a laser a sand caster might not even be necessary. If you are lucky the armour on even a Class A can entirely block a beam laser. This type of combat is likely to be the most fun to fight out as the player ship needs to take quite a few hits before it is going to be significantly impacted.

If they are entirely unarmed they may just sneak up and attempt to board (either by linking) or space walk (though in atmosphere this would be exciting to say the least). This is unlikely as a primary threat vector, but if at least one of the small craft is armed, then it might be the follow-up once you had surrendered. Once craft would approach to land boarders while the others stand-off to quickly punish any attempt to resist.

A low threat pirate encounter could be several (3+) small craft equipped with beam lasers on their firm point. Each will need to be detected, tracked and targeted separately which means player choice. A single hit on one will eliminate it allowing the players to quickly alter the odds (and give the referee a reason for the pirates to call off the attack). You are building in credibly balanced asymmetry as pirates are trading speed and dispersed attacks for individually weaker vessels. It is also credible that even hard up pirates are easily able to scrape up a few ships boat's or launches as they are cheap and ubiquitous. You can also have them piloted by mediocre crews who are also ubiquitous - every individual that fails to survive their first term in the Navy gets Gunner-0 Pilot-0. This is a credible source of disaffected, young tearaways looking to show "da man" they had the right stuff. A few ex-navy who washed out in their second term might even have come with a small-craft as a benefit. If a war has recently happened (or is in progress) you might have quite a lot of retired Navy types with no work (and possibly no home world). Drifter(Scavengers) or Scouts get Pilot-0 and Astrogation-0 and so are also particularly suited to operating close to Gas Giants.

If the small craft originate from an abandoned space station with a shipyard somewhere in system then you also have a later campaign option to smash the pirate base. If you want variety you can plunder the Small Craft Catalogue for ideas, but half the fun of being a referee is designing stuff and randomly cobbling together small craft can be an amusing exercise in itself. Vessels could be converted launches or dirt cheap asteroid weapons platforms with R-Drives.

If you place this base on a route the players need to use regularly then it will justify the amount of work you are putting into random gas giant encounters. The players have a chance to get the lie of the land and negotiate how they are going to minimise the risk. There may be an established "toll" - the pirates may claim ownership of the gas giant. They may attack randomly as each hunting pack is commanded by a pack leader who have wildly varying motivations. Some are just trying to survive and would prefer not to take life, some might be more keen to prove their tactical brilliance and will value a worthy opponent, some might be mentally unbalanced by their war experience and may be still fighting that war. Resourceful players may conduct some investigation to attempt to reduce the chance of a terminal encounter.

As a player I would much prefer there to be a reason for even "random" encounters.
Thank you very much for all of this. This is exactly the kind of practical breakdown I was hoping for.
The weapon-based distinction is especially helpful. It immediately gives me a better sense of how to tune the danger without making it feel artificial.

I also really like the idea of several small craft as a lower-threat pirate encounter. That feels much more playable than one optimized pirate ship. The players have multiple targets, each individual attacker is fragile, the pirates have a believable reason to break off, and I can still create tension.

Today I want to run a few mock encounters by myself to get a better feel for the ship combat, and I will try out some of your examples!
 
What? I am sorry, I do not understand your point.
I was trying to say: you would not deaccelerate half way. You want to arrive at the gas giant with suitable speed left to slingshot around and skim, as opposed to arrive with zero speed, like you would when you try to land on a planet.
I don't think a slingshot and skim is compatible with the refuelling time frames in companion. Slingshot is when you pass close to a gravity well in order to change your vector without losing speed. Since a gas giant might be able to apply maybe 3G delta-v toward its centre at refuelling depths it will only be pulling you in at 30 m/s. If you whizz through at high speeds then you will fly through at a tangent before it can significantly deflect your velocity (certainly enough to keep you in orbit within the gas).

If you sling shot out you will need to decelerate to a stop and then accelerate in the other direction to get back to the gas giant.

Based on the vector movement rules in the game I suspect you would need to be moving slow enough that a stationary 3G ship could accelerate to match velocity. If you move too fast in atmo you will dramatically increase the impact of atmospheric drag). The speed of sound is 0.3 km/s and that was a barrier for years. Mach 30 is probably the limit we can aspire to presently (less than 10km/s) and the engineering challenges are significant requiring very streamlined objects with careful heat management. The speed of sound in hydrogen is about 4 times that of air, but it increases with density and at the point of refuelling it is likely to be in the same order of magnitude as air.

Traveller ships generally don't crash through atmospheres at high speeds as the majority of time they are taking off and landing and either start from stationary or plan to end stationary (which to be fair is pretty much guaranteed, it is just whether the ship is intact afterward) and are not designed for it. A type A is classed as streamlined, but it isn't the needle shape needed for zipping through atmospheres at hyper velocity. The grav drives do most of the heavy lifting and in theory you would take off vertically, so atmospheric drag would be limited.

That was why I asked where the 57km/s came from (I presume escape velocity) as it is above the upper limit of our current theoretical maximums. If your speed is closer to 10km/s for example then it is the velocity a 3G vessel could attain in 1 space combat round from a standing start.

These calculations are all a bit complicated though as we are not taking into account the 11km/s rotation speed of Jupiter nor the fact that we can apply thrust to directly counteract gravitational pull (i.e. we are not trying to achieve a thrust-free stable orbit outside the atmosphere).
 
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I hadn't fully appreciated until I actually tried to map it out just how big the gas giant is at vector movement scale. At 648 km per grid (square or hex) the gas giant is 185 squares across. I think I had confused myself as in Mayday the planets are single hex, but that is the because the scale is 300,000 km per grid.

At vector movement scale 57km/s is 31 squares per round. You could traverse the entire diameter of the gas giant in under 6 rounds. In that time you would need to have completely reversed your vector (a delta-V of 62 squares) to stay within the atmosphere which sounds implausible even using the free 3G from the planet unless your ship could pull 10G.

Of course that 3G is not constant over the 90 square radius of the gas giant. I suggest mapping out the various bands in the gas giant as set out in the Companion and giving them their own averaged gravity. As the density is a function of gravity you would expect an exponential rather than linear variation in the radius of each band. Each will also come with its special effects (and the rate of descent information will cue you to the gravity). For playability you probably want to make some simplifications.

Working out the how to conduct refuelling operations is starting to look like quite a fun solo mini-game even without the pirates :)
 
Well I have been suggesting you check out LBB:2 planet templates for a few posts now...

By the way if you are near the gas giant then you have your vector moved 2.5g towards the centre of the planet every turn, your momentum vector and thrust vector have to overcome this or you have issues... the gravity zones are part of the LBB:2 calculations too.
 
Well I have been suggesting you check out LBB:2 planet templates for a few posts now...
Yeah, but you always do that :)

I did have a look at LBB 2, but converting the units and specs of the old ship (and weapon rules) was annoying me. I couldn't see anything about maximum velocities in atmospheres (though I note it does give a braking effect but it seems to be voluntary). Gravity is only part of the issue, I also want to know how that corresponds to the various refuelling depths in the Companion.

LBB2 also seems to carry over the acceleration issue from triplanetary where it assumes all acceleration is gained instantly (i.e. whilst your velocity after thrust is your new vector, you should not be moving that whole vector that turn as you did not attain that final velocity until then end of that turn).

It reads like a wargame and whilst I am now thinking that might be fun as a solo activity, I still don't think it will be that gripping for a group of players only a few of which have roles on the ship that will see an action every turn. The player of a gunner will likely get pretty bored rolling a couple of dice every turn (and possibly not even that) while the pilot is full on playing with his protractor. The engineer is only going to get a look in when things get very sticky and the Steward might as well sit out that game session.

Triplanetary and Mayday were designed as games where everyone had a ship and that might be fun (though I would have had difficulty selling combat trigonometry to my most recent group of players). As part of a normal game though it probably won't appeal much (which is likely why Mongoose when the abstract route).

Still, I'll be digging out the butchers paper later and see how far the planetary templates take me.

EDIT:
WOWSA. According to those formulas by the time you are in the atmosphere of Jupiter you are subject to 11G. Saturn is 8.5G and the SGGs are far more reasonable at 1G.

Pioneer 11's pass of Jupiter was 34,000-42,000 km (depending on which wiki entry you believe). I am presuming this is the distance from the "surface" and so equates to around 100,000km from the centre of the planet and it would have been subject to around 5-6G if the formulas are correct. The NASA animation shows a 100 degree course change and was doing about 11km/s when it interacted (and was accelerated to a max 22-46km/s (lots of contradictory information). I am too tired to work out just now how close that tallies with the LBB 2 model at even ball park levels.

It does seem that refuelling in Jupiter's or Saturn's atmosphere would put you under intense gravitational strain and a stable orbit would be far outside the atmosphere. It looks like several passes would be required and as you need to stop and turn around doing so at the wrong speed would be... disadvantageous.

SGGs are the way to go.

EDIT2:
Further thought indicates the something in LBB is wrong (for Jupiter at least). If you feed the surface gravity back into the formula it places the surface at 1441 not the 714 as shown in the table (which is the real world value).

It appear that the mass of Jupiter is wrong. It should be 317.8 earth masses, once you plug that in you get the correct values.
Saturn should be 95.16 not 600. If you plug that in however it corrects the values.
 
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Yeah, but you always do that :)

I did have a look at LBB 2, but converting the units and specs of the old ship (and weapon rules) was annoying me. I couldn't see anything about maximum velocities in atmospheres (though I note it does give a braking effect but it seems to be voluntary). Gravity is only part of the issue, I also want to know how that corresponds to the various refuelling depths in the Companion.

LBB2 also seems to carry over the acceleration issue from triplanetary where it assumes all acceleration is gained instantly (i.e. whilst your velocity after thrust is your new vector, you should not be moving that whole vector that turn as you did not attain that final velocity until then end of that turn).

It reads like a wargame and whilst I am now thinking that might be fun as a solo activity, I still don't think it will be that gripping for a group of players only a few of which have roles on the ship that will see an action every turn. The player of a gunner will likely get pretty bored rolling a couple of dice every turn (and possibly not even that) while the pilot is full on playing with his protractor. The engineer is only going to get a look in when things get very sticky and the Steward might as well sit out that game session.
My players tend to meta-game ship encounters collectively, although one of them is the captain and he tends to be most active in ship tactical discussions. They also tend to take over the NPCs who are involved in a given situation, which I generally allow - it make sense for a DNR campaign - if your character is not involved in a given situation just take over an NPC who is. While strictly speaking, this breaks immersion a bit, there are plenty of role-play immersion scenarios as well and not every week has to be the same thing. I'd say, open up the participation a bit for these kinds of encounters even at the price of getting a bit meta - if it seems likely to increase participation of the the less involved players.
 
In order to skim, most ships would have to come in with a decent vector to avoid getting trapped in the gravity well. Jupiter is 2.5G at its nominal surface (actually the upper atmosphere) with an escape velocity of 60km/s. Because you're deliberately dipping into the atmosphere to scoop, drag and lift are also going to be factors. But a fast enough approach will get you in and out.

Vector movement isn't really conductive to atmospheric maneuvering.
 
Even 1G can scoop, it just needs speed. Too little and it's sayonara. Too much and it's fireball time.

So find that goldilocks speed; that's basically what the pilot rolls are all about.

60km/s is 60,000m/s, which is 6000 seconds of 10m/s thrust. Which is under 2 hours, much less time than the approach. You just decelerate less than you need to get to realtive zero and enter into a suitable high atmosphere orbit on the edge of escape velocity, using the 10m/s thrust to offset drag. Any aerodynamic lift the ship can generate may help.

When it's time to leave, 10m/s should be enough to boost the speed to escape velocity and off we go.
 
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Hiding in the clouds sounds like a fool's errand to me. The smart pirates might land on a suitable moon and make themselves quiet.

If you use active sensors then that can be detected. If both are using passive sensors then they will have greater trouble detecting each other as distance increases. If you don't want to miss the incoming "victim" you'd need to deploy passive sensors to scan every direction they could be incoming and a lot of them to be reasonably sure anyone incoming goes by something with the passive scanners.

Anyone actively scanning and not on a course to/from or doing skimming will be highly suspicious.

Anyone on the far side of the gas giant may be further from you than the moon is from Earth and has that great big planet in between.

Always seems to me that hijackers or Space Vikings make more sense.
 
Even 1G can scoop, it just needs speed. Too little and it's sayonara. Too much and it's fireball time.

So find that goldilocks speed; that's basically what the pilot rolls are all about.

60km/s is 60,000m/s, which is 6000 seconds of 10m/s thrust. Which is under 2 hours, much less time than the approach. You just decelerate less than you need to get to realtive zero and enter into a suitable high atmosphere orbit on the edge of escape velocity, using the 10m/s thrust to offset drag. Any aerodynamic lift the ship can generate may help.

When it's time to leave, 10m/s should be enough to boost the speed to escape velocity and off we go.
The problem with a 2.5 G planet is that if you hit atmosphere at close to 60km/s and use all your 1G to offset it you will still be accelerating toward the centre of the planet at 1.5G.

On approach you will also be accelerating towards the centre of the planet once you get to 114,000 km from the centre of the planet it will have reached 1G and from that point your drive will not be able to neutralise it.

While skimming you will be moving at 2.5 G toward the planetary centre. After 7 space rounds (1 hour 10 minutes) you will hit the centre of the planet. If you use all your thrust to offset that it will take 9 rounds. Now to be fair gravity gets a bit funky the closer you get to the centre of the planet, but you will be unrecoverable long before you reach the centre of the planet, probably once you are below the "surface". The atmosphere of gas giants is a really narrow region, and even if it were 700km thick that is under 1 space round of movement at 1.5G.

So to skim you are going to have to pass through and out* and remain above escape velocity the whole time. That means your best path is a chord that just misses the surface. The max chord length by Pythagoras (where the hypotenuse is 70700 and one of the short sides is 70000) gives around 20,000km to play with. At 60 km/s that gives you under 6 minutes or if we are generous 1 pass at refuelling (1%, but we are probably not in the deeps at that point).

You then exit the atmo. heading out into space. You can still count on the planet to help with braking and accelerating back the other way for your next pass, it is just under 30 minutes to get to the turn round point (and obviously the same to go back the other way).

So whilst the pass through atmosphere is minutes, the total round trip time is more like an hour per 1%. 10 hours to refuel a free trader.

I am still not convinced that zipping through the deeps at 60km/s is credible. If you stick to the thinner part of the atmosphere though it will take you 4 times longer.

* In order to change your vector enough to remain in atmospheric orbit ay 60 km/s my maths says you need to thrust in the direction of the centre of the planet at about 7G even with 2.5 being provided by the planet that will still require 5G from the ship (plus whatever you need to overcome atmospheric drag).
 
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