Planar Cosmology

[warlock1971]

I hope to see some interesting discussion on individuals' takes on suitable planar cosmology here.

I am not pro a D&D-esque Planar Cosmology for Legend/RQ et al. Certain ideas are great, IMO, like the River Styx and an Astral Plane ... perhaps not as presented in D&D, however.

 

[Prime_Evil]

It's worth noting that elements of the D&D Planar cosmology are lifted directly from mythological or literary sources.

 

[The Wolf]

They are indeed. It's a real melting pot of ideas when you look at D&D planar cosmology.

 

[Prime_Evil]

They are indeed. It's a real melting pot of ideas when you look at D&D planar cosmology.

That's both its greatest strength and its greatest weakness - on the one hand it allows you to incorporate just about any influences that you want, while on the other hand it lacks elegance and coherence. I love Planescape for many reasons, but it actually made things worse by adding another layer of complexity on top of the cosmology it had inherited.

I feel that Legend should try to avoid this mistake from the outset by presenting multiple competing interpretations of how the planes MIGHT work and refusing to nominate any of them as the only true explanation. Even those adventurers who have travelled to other realities have only a vague knowledge of how things MIGHT fit together. Sages may study the Lore (Multiverse) skill to gain a broad knowledge of the various theories about how the different dimensions fit together - but even these theories are incomplete. For example, the perspective of a shaman on this question is likely to be quite different to that of a priest or a sorceror. In Legend, the planes should not be reduced to a place where high-powered adventures take place - they should remain a places of deep mythic significance where reality is mutable and the preconceptions of the visitor can shape the forms that phenomena take.

 

[The Wolf]

Quite true. Having the planes of reality literally shape themselves based on travellers arriving there is an idea I've been toying with for a while. I've done it a few times in non-d20 games and the whole concept fascinates me.

This is why in Monsters of Legend 2 there's a short bit on the planes, and it pretty much states these are just a sample of the delights that you can find when travelling outside of the mortal plane. Nothing's set in stone and I think any planar cosmology book for Legend would have to provide a slew of ideas for planes, rather than locking them into any one given design.

 

[DamonJynx]

Definitely a tricky subject. I'm sure there will be as many differing opinions as there are planes!

Does there have to be a cosmology? Does it have to 'fit'?

I don't have a problem with there being other planes but I do have a problem with them being shoe-horned into a grand pattern.

An interesting correlation of sorts exists in my mind: when you look at atomic structure, nucleus, protons, electrons and whatever (don't quote me I'm not a scientist!) there are very distinct similarities to the structure of a solar system. What if our solar system is simply an atom in a .... Kind of puts things in a different perspective - I've only recently read some of H P Lovecraft's tales, though I've had these thoughts for a very long time, but I see where he was coming from.

I know that ramble isn't really to do with planes, but what if each 'plane' was in effect like our perceived universe, made up of millions of galaxies, each of which made up of millions of solar systems which are in turn made up of...

 

[Prime_Evil]

Did you take the Red Pill or the Blue pill this morning?

There's a serious theory amongst cosmologists that the universe requires conscious observers to force it into a definite state. Until conscious observers arise, all of the possible histories of the universe exist in a state of superposition. By the act of observing the universe, conscious minds collapse the probabilistic waveform and force it to assume one state or another. This could be remarkably similar to the way that Moorcock describes Earl Aubec forming new lands out of raw chaos...

 

[DamonJynx]

Did you take the Red Pill or the Blue pill this morning?

:lol: No pills this morning, however, let's just say my youth was a time of... exploration and experimentation

There's a serious theory amongst cosmologists that the universe requires conscious observers to force it into a definite state. Until conscious observers arise, all of the possible histories of the universe exist in a state of superposition. By the act of observing the universe, conscious minds collapse the probabilistic waveform and force it to assume one state or another. This could be remarkably similar to the way that Moorcock describes Earl Aubec forming new lands out of raw chaos...

A bit like, if a tree falls in a forest and no-one observes it, does it still make a noise?

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I think that many different interpretations should exist... at least one per pantheon.

However, they must NOT agree... never ever!!!

'RuneQuest' in all its iterations (and thus 'Legend') has always been a system based upon (amongst a few things) the centrality of religion and the worship of higher powers (whatever "they" are in any setting). Many different interpretations have been put forward as being the "correct" version, they all largely disagree (in Gloranthan 'RuneQuest', for example, the creation of a "mono-mythic synthesis" was part of the Godlearner hubris that lead to their destruction). "Ultimate truth" is ultimately bad.

So chuck-in as many interpretations as possible. As long as they are rooted in their own cultural, internally consistent religious backgrounds, and rationales... the more the merrier!!!

 

[Prime_Evil]

Indeed...and this is a key point of difference between the way that d100 games have treat planar cosmologies and the way that D&D treats the same topic. Traditionally, in RQ, the shaman who believes in a spirit world coexistent with the physical world is just as likely to be right as the priest with an elaborate system of heavens and hells or the sorcerer with a purely mechanistic description of how various realities form the multiverse. Pretty much all d100 games avoid the idea that there is an Absolute Truth to be revealed by the game designer and instead encourage players to think of multiple limited truths that may or may not be compatible, each of which is only valid within its own frame of reference.

 

[warlock1971]

Now this is what I was talking about ... creative juices all over the place!

Personally, I like the idea of a primeval Chaos-entity. A blind, uncaring creator that resides in the Outer Dark somewhere, far from the "Mortal Realm". I also like the idea of vast (infinite?) "bubble" realms that exist in extra-dimensional space. My "Demon Realm" is one such "plane".

One question would revolve around travel to these realms, and how this occurs. The quick answer is, most probably, Sorcery or Divine Magic. I need a "mechanic" or answer to the question of what regulates/protects the Mortal Realm from being overrun by Chaos Gods/Elder Things/Elemental Lords/Demon Princes whatever?

 

[alex_greene]

Did you take the Red Pill or the Blue pill this morning?

There's a serious theory amongst cosmologists that the universe requires conscious observers to force it into a definite state. Until conscious observers arise, all of the possible histories of the universe exist in a state of superposition. By the act of observing the universe, conscious minds collapse the probabilistic waveform and force it to assume one state or another.

"With our thoughts, we make the world." - The Tathagata Buddha.

The best way of revealing extraplanar stuff is to introduce it a piece at a time. Artefacts from other places, which should not be - describe the contents of a vial as "waters from some fabled river in the Underworld in which, according to the legend, the departing souls of the dead must bathe in order to wash away the burdens and stains of their past lives before entering the afterlife, cleansed," rather than "Oh, it's River Lethe water. Drink it and it gives you permanent amnesia."

Or perhaps some fisherman dredges up an ancient mechanism from the bottom of the sea that looks like part of some larger mechanism, all brass and gears and cogwheels; and the characters end up learning that it formed part of a strange realm behind the worlds, an Orrery behind The Curtain, where each globe is a realm unto itself; strange beings from a plane where the conscious minds there correspond to the Jungian Archetype of the Shadow here.

And then gradually, introduce them to the realms - at first by accident; a miscast Teleport spell throws them into a mirror realm where the people they know are all evil, twisted reflections of their normal characters for example, or a quest takes them through a doorway into an underground realm where they travel along a dark river to a place where dead souls dwell ... or did they really visit there in person, or did hallucinogenic fumes overwhelm their bodies while they were trapped down there?

At some point, the characters discover spells, meditation techniques or devices which will allow them controlled access to those otherplanar worlds - a magic belt, a doorway, a ring, a vial of potion - but even then, those sojourns should be risky propositions.

 

[Prime_Evil]

I fully agree with this approach - many RPGs treat otherworldly realms as just another location where adventures can occur, robbing them of any sense of mystery. By revealing the existence of other realms gradually, you can keep the campaign feeling "grounded" while at the same time imbuing the otherworld with a mythic resonance that it might otherwise lack. It's a good idea to make adventurer's first encounter with otherworldly beings or objects brief but memorable - the aim is to draw back the veil just a little bit and leave them wanting more. A single brief glimpse of the world of faerie or a vision of a forsaken corner of hell is more than enough at this point. Folk tales and fantasy fiction give plenty of examples of how brief otherworldly encounters can occur that you can plunder for ideas. Tantalize the players, but don't reveal too much and don't give them any point of reference that they can use to fit things into a neat conceptual scheme. Try to imbue the initial encounter with a sense of numinous awe or numinous dread and it will make it much easier to preserve a sense of mystery later on.

 

[alex_greene]

At all costs, avoid the "Oh, it's XYZ" thing.

Once the players start saying "Oh, it's just a gateway to The Orrery," or "Oh, it's just the home of the elves" (as, indeed, "Oh, they're elves") then it's time to remind them that these places are dangerous and mysterious alike. And remind them that they are mere visitors to those realms - tourists, intruders maybe, but never denizens.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Tell them second-hand at fist, then let them "peak" through a crack in reality (maybe not even going anywhere, but merely having a profound vision of "other"). That should be enough to "flay" their minds/souls and send them screaming/running/questioning back to their caves/priests/elders in stunned awe.

As mentioned, at all costs avoid the situation of seeing the supra-mundane as being "just another location". In pretty much all non-modern traditions the realms of the gods, the various concepts of "otherworld", and the spheres, are places of intense mystery that mortals had better not go to... or if they do, in abject reverence at least.

Basically, if you are not touched by the Gods, don't mess with the Gods.

 

[Prime_Evil]

The key point is to let the players experience a hint of what philosopher Rudolph Otto called the mysterium tremendum - the awesome mystery experienced in the presence of the Wholly Other. He describes this as a sense of numinous awe. C.S Lewis offers a parable to explain what this sensation is like in the opening chapter of The Problem of Pain. If you were told that there is a hungry tiger in the next room, you might experience a sense of fear. If you were told there was a ghost in the next room, you might experience a sense of terror due to its uncanny nature. But if you were told that God was in the next room and was waiting to judge your soul, you might experience something different - a sense of numinous dread. Lewis distinguishes between fear, terror, and numinous dread - he suggests that they share something in common, but that the experience of the otherworldly consists of dread mixed with awe in the presence of such a terrifying mystery. This is what we should aspire to when describing encounters with the Otherworld, but it is very hard to achieve in practice - players often think in terms of game mechanics rather than emotional resonance...

 

[DamonJynx]

That is so true. I struggle to get my players to try and forget they are playing are a game and get them immersed in the story - too many years of playing D&D, WOW and such like I'm afraid.

 

[Prime_Evil]

Well...it's a truism of roleplaying that as soon as you give something hit points, at least one player in every group will try to figure out a way to kill it. This mindset makes it very hard to sustain a sense of mystery and wonder. In my opinion, one of the bad things that third edition D&D did to the hobby was to give some players a deep-seated sense of entitlement when it comes to giving game stats to everything*. These players don't like it if they get the feeling that you are introducing supernatural elements or effects that aren't rooted in the game rules - they want to know exactly how everything works in game terms BEFORE they are willing to suspend their disbelief. .


* I don't think this was the intention of the authors of 3E, but it has been a second-order effect of some design choices made early during the development of the game.