persistence and fear

[badside bill]

Ok took a quick browse on the new MRQ Companion book and i was just wondering a bit about the fear spell.

now the spellresisting system has been changed into a skill called persistence. but is this a skill which you can choose to use or is it a somewhat a skill which automatically sets in?

If this is a skill which you can choose to use or not use, then what strikes me is that if someone cast the spell fear on a character and the character chooses not to use the persistence skill, nothing dangerous happens right? he just scrambles off in fear and thats it right? what do you guys say?

the spell becomes dangerous because of the persistance skill and i think that makes it a bit weird. furthermore it doesen`t say anything about the persistence is a controllable skill or not. but when you put it up as a skill i get this image of it as something which you choose to do or not..
but i don`t know, what is the general opinion about this?

 

[Trifletraxor]

Hmm... You can chose to not use the skill, e.g. let the spell go in.
If you fail the persistence roll or let the spell go in, you'll try to escape if possible. If you succeed, you'll get a -20% to all skills. Kinda strange, so if you're trapped in melee with no way out, it's better to let the spell in (and avoid the chance of dying due to the spell).

SGL.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Another rushed conversion (sigh). The roll is not opposed, whereas in RQ3 it was a Resistance roll, so you are better off not rolling at all for fear of rolling 00 and dying outright. In the old way being Feared by a high-POW opponent meant a high chance of dying because the caster had a high chance of rolling a critical or special success. I have been working upon shades lately and had not noticed it, since the Fearshock conversion has been carried out in a better way.

I would suggest, once the spell is successfully cast, to roll an opposed Persistence test and apply the Fearshock table from the monster book (it's released under OGL so you can easily adapt it).

 

[weasel_fierce]

Is there anything to support the idea that you dont have to resist the spell ? The mind trying to defend itself, basically.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Is there anything to support the idea that you dont have to resist the spell ? The mind trying to defend itself, basically.

I would say so. I previous editions, you could chose if you wanted to accept a spell casted on you or not, and there is nothing that states anything different in MRQ.

SGL.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Just noticed another botched conversion:

There's no way to resist a Fanaticism spell. It's useless as anything else, but it will be a brilliant attack spell to use on skilled opponents.

So far, a lot of MRQ has just been RQ3 reprinting with added flaws...

SGL.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I would say so. I previous editions, you could chose if you wanted to accept a spell casted on you or not, and there is nothing that states anything different in MRQ.

SGL.

Thats a call on your part though. MRQ is not written as "RQ3 except where stated to be different". It is what it is, on its own.

However, if you interpret the wording of the rules as being optional, Im still not sure why the spell is broken. A target failing to, or choosing to, not resist a Fear spell will flee whenever possible, meaning that unless you're surrounded or otherwise in a position you cannot extricate yourself from, you will be leaving yourself open to free attacks (and these benefitting from a +20 bonus to strike you).

If you do make it out of the melee in one piece, that leaves the enemy to hack your companions apart.

Not sure if this is nescesarily superior.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Don't be so drastic, Trif. The magic system is well designed in its core aspects. Some spells may need rebalancing but for instance, Fanaticism....

OMG! :shock: No parry and no spells in exchange for a +20% to hit? Even for a -1d4 damage modifier magician? And you cannot resist it? Houserule! Immediate Houserule! And someone should eat some mug for this!

 

[Trifletraxor]

However, if you interpret the wording of the rules as being optional, Im still not sure why the spell is broken. A target failing to, or choosing to, not resist a Fear spell will flee whenever possible, meaning that unless you're surrounded or otherwise in a position you cannot extricate yourself from, you will be leaving yourself open to free attacks (and these benefitting from a +20 bonus to strike you).

If you do make it out of the melee in one piece, that leaves the enemy to hack your companions apart.

I said "if you're trapped in melee with no way out, it's better to let the spell in (and avoid the chance of dying due to the spell)."

In other situations it would be better to try resisting. Still, it's flawed. You should have a higher subtraction to your attacks if you fail to resist a fear spell than if you don't.

SGL.

 

[soltakss]

Trouble is, you don't know what the spell is until it is too late. You feel yourself being attacked by a spell, what do you do? Assume it's Fear and choose not to resist, then find out it's something like Sever Spirit, if that bounces back into existence? The troll casting a spell at you might be casting Blinding or Fear or something really nasty.

Fanatacism has always been an attack spell, under certain circumstances. I've been sent fanatical before, although in the past it halved parry. In fact, I've been sent Berserk before by an enemy, just so I couldn't parry or dodge and couldn't cast Healing. Didn't work, though.

My favourite such spell is Face Chaos, or whatever it's called now. Cast it on your companion when you are running from a gang of broos or a chaos demon, it can't be resisted and makes them stop and fight, or stop and die. That should buy enough time to regroup and counterattack or just escape.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Trouble is, you don't know what the spell is until it is too late. You feel yourself being attacked by a spell, what do you do? Assume it's Fear and choose not to resist, then find out it's something like Sever Spirit, if that bounces back into existence? The troll casting a spell at you might be casting Blinding or Fear or something really nasty.

That's a very good point. Still, I find it strange that when trapped in a combat situation, failing the persistence roll is better than making it.

Fanatacism has always been an attack spell, under certain circumstances. I've been sent fanatical before, although in the past it halved parry. In fact, I've been sent Berserk before by an enemy, just so I couldn't parry or dodge and couldn't cast Healing. Didn't work, though.

Yes, but in previous editions, fanaticism could be resisted, you could still cast attack spells when under it's influence, and it improved your attack percentage more (unless it's below 40% to start with). As it is, it's not usable as anything except an attack spell, but as such it works extremely well.

My favourite such spell is Face Chaos, or whatever it's called now. Cast it on your companion when you are running from a gang of broos or a chaos demon, it can't be resisted and makes them stop and fight, or stop and die. That should buy enough time to regroup and counterattack or just escape.

Pure evil!

SGL.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Fanaticism and Berserk should also give the option of turning one (Fanaticism) or all (Berserk) reactions into a Combat Actions. In RQ3 a Fanatic or Berserk character used to attack twice per round, as he could not parry effectively and his Shield Attack / Kick Attack skill was brought to decent levels. In MRQ this does not happen any more, so an amendment is needed.

 

[badside bill]

but one thing that strikes a bit odd to me is still that the danger of the fear spell is not bound up to that the caster is doing his casting well, it is bounded up to the reciver of the spells failure to resist it.

And the consequences of recieving the spell is not that grave either i think. When he fails the persistence test it actually do not say anything else than that the unlycky bastard turns around runs screaming away, but if forced to combat he will still fightwithout any penalty, and just run off when the is there.

as far as i can see.. maybe it should have stood, "the target also gets a penalty of -20% to all actions", but penalty is somewhat standard right? at least madness has it too.

 

[elgrin]

I suspect that when this spell was written, somewhere in the target's response to this spell was an implicit expectation that a character would immediately be open to any number of 'free hits' as he exited the scene.
Unfortunately for users of the spell in my campaign, I cannot for the life of me see the reality of extra blows inside the time frame of a round split into CA's, and so have eliminated 'Free Actions' completely. This does however, in fact, lead to exactly the problem everyone is debating, how it can be better to ignore and accept a spell than oppose it.

elgrin

 

[badside bill]

it seems to me a that some skills here are meant to be more or less automaticly activated reactions which could be "improved" by some good old fighting and spellcasting.


though as i see it, the word skill itself implies some sort of an controlled action of which a person has aquired by some sort of research or experience.

and what i think becomes a problem with skills like percistence and resilience, is defining them either as skills which you do have control over or not.
for eksample, if percistence was defined not as skill together with all other skills, but as an indicator on what you can muster when you face a spell and it is clearly defined that this "skill" do automaticly activate itself, it wouldn`t be that much of a problem.

as far as i understand it, this skill indicate that it is some sort of a passive mental defense you can use against spells and similar tests. but thats not all either, it seems that you can active use this spell to "get touched" by a rune too. i really don`t understand this skill at all, i do not even understand why this is defined as a skill..

 

[Adept]

My favourite such spell is Face Chaos, or whatever it's called now. Cast it on your companion when you are running from a gang of broos or a chaos demon, it can't be resisted and makes them stop and fight, or stop and die. That should buy enough time to regroup and counterattack or just escape.

When does this come up?

A person that can cast face chaos is an Urox cultist. When an Urok (aka Storm Bull) warrior uses the holy power of the bull to make good his own escape... well, somehow I don't see that person having progressed far enough in the cult to have gained the spell (or any spell) in the first place.

 

[Trifletraxor]

Hehe, Urox provides that spell to assosiate cults...

SGL.

 

[soltakss]

My favourite such spell is Face Chaos, or whatever it's called now. Cast it on your companion when you are running from a gang of broos or a chaos demon, it can't be resisted and makes them stop and fight, or stop and die. That should buy enough time to regroup and counterattack or just escape.

When does this come up?

When you're being chased by something big, nasty and chaotic, or by things that are not so big, numerous and chaotic.

A person that can cast face chaos is an Urox cultist. When an Urok (aka Storm Bull) warrior uses the holy power of the bull to make good his own escape... well, somehow I don't see that person having progressed far enough in the cult to have gained the spell (or any spell) in the first place.

He who turns and runs away lives to fight another day .....

Storm Bulls/Uroxi have always had the cult duty of killing chaos or, if the chaos is too powerful, reporting it to the Storm Bull cult. Of course, they might be ordered to go back with a gang and kill it anyway, but hopefully it will have disappeared by then. OK, it might have said something in the spell description that "Storm Bulls stand and fight anyway" but I regard that as poetic licence.

Face Chaos was a resuable spell in RQ2/3, so Initiates could get it on a one-use. I can't think of many better ways to spend my 1 POW than saving my life at the expense of another.

But, as Triff says, Storm Bull used to give it to Orlanth, and we know how cowardly and deceitful Orlanthi can be.

See Ya

Simon

 

[badside bill]

found this funny spell called Hand of Death here the other day. seems like good old spirit magic is getting a bit of an upper hand here compared to the other types of magic.

 

[Rurik]

found this funny spell called Hand of Death here the other day. seems like good old spirit magic is getting a bit of an upper hand here compared to the other types of magic.

I'm sure then you'll be thrilled to know that they took the Divine Spell Sever Spirit out of the game because it was too deadly. Yet we have Hand of Death and Skybolt as Rune spells. :?