Omega or no???
- Thread starter Kosh127
- Start date
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
I like it, especially since it's so iconic of the show. Combined fleet operations is the key to its success, since its limited to 1 turn and its main weapons are either boresighted or relatively short ranged. Initiative sinks are necessary in order to line up shots. Also, the fighters in Armageddon should be a useful upgrade.
angelus2000
Mongoose
I've only played EA a few times on Vassal so I've not much experience with one. I'll list a sort of pros and cons of the omega versus the other "Big Four" battle level ships.
Pros.
1. Deceptive Secondaries. At first glance its secondary pulse weapons seem underpowered, especially in comparison to either the G'Qaun( a lot more AD and better balanced between arcs) or Tertius ( SAP and DD). however, fully half the gquans secondaries are ineffective(Weak vs Hull 6) and the tertius's lack both range and TL. That little bit of extra range and TL (guaranteed re-roll) can make a difference.
2. Interceptors. Omega has a clear advantage here. No other standard Battle PL has as many ( only the tertius has them at all). Being able to negate the first 4 or 5 hits from pulse weapon a turn adds up in survivability.
3. Fighters. Carries 2x as many as the closest counterpart and can carry the 2nd( or the, depending on who you ask) best fighter in the game, the T-bolt.
4. Aft Boresight. These dont get mentioned nearly enough. If your playing a fast, manuervable enemy; these things can make the difference. A recent vassal game between me(EA) and an ISA player saw heavy use of the Aft Boresights. Smack them with SAP, DD, Beam goodness coming and going. During certain campaign scenarios, aft boresights are a godsend.
5. AF weapons. No other Battle PL carries dedicated AF weaponry. Tinashis Mini-Beams can be used as AF, but that means their not firing those beams at YOUR ships, depending on arc. Omegas can usually be expected to take of fighters attacking the ship, freeing up your fighters for anti-ship strikes.
Cons.
1. Boresight. See the many threads about boresight vs Fwd Arc beams to know why this is a con. While at longer range they are nearly equal, an Omegas effective firepower takes a hit once range closes to 15" or less.
2. Fighters. Can be a con, depending on the engagement range. It does carry more fighters than others, but it launchs those fighters at the same speed as other Battle PL Ships. Effective use of the Scramble! SA is necessary to get all those extra fighters out in a hurry. However, at long ranges, you'll most likely not be using other SA's anyways, as the B arc main weapons put a severe crimp in the use of APTE or CAF.
3. Weak arcs. While omega pulse cannon have extra range and are TL, they are concentrated to the F arc, with weaker P/S and very weak A arc amounts of AD. Both the G'quan and Tinashi have balanced all-round firepower, while tertius can usually count on the superior raid and skirmish level centauri ships to cover its aft. While the aft boresight beam can cover to a certain extent, this may mean you have to turn away from the main fight in order to use that beam. If an ship of equal speed and more manueverability can mange to get in the A arc of an omega ( and out of boresight), the omega can find itself seriously outgunned by even Skirmish PL ships.
In reality, the Omega need support from smaller ships in order to be fully effective. It does have the surviveability to take a pretty good pounding, it lacks both the speed and nimbleness to bring its strengths to bear if out-flanked or taken by suprise. Its inherent fighter support can make such an attack costly for your enemy if played right, but not in time to prevent major damage. Good initial placement and range managment cna really make the omega shine, but put them in the wrong spot and wrong range, and thier target practice
Anyways hopes this help a bit. I'm nowhere near an EA expert but I belive these pros and cons would be fairly close to what they would say.
Pros.
1. Deceptive Secondaries. At first glance its secondary pulse weapons seem underpowered, especially in comparison to either the G'Qaun( a lot more AD and better balanced between arcs) or Tertius ( SAP and DD). however, fully half the gquans secondaries are ineffective(Weak vs Hull 6) and the tertius's lack both range and TL. That little bit of extra range and TL (guaranteed re-roll) can make a difference.
2. Interceptors. Omega has a clear advantage here. No other standard Battle PL has as many ( only the tertius has them at all). Being able to negate the first 4 or 5 hits from pulse weapon a turn adds up in survivability.
3. Fighters. Carries 2x as many as the closest counterpart and can carry the 2nd( or the, depending on who you ask) best fighter in the game, the T-bolt.
4. Aft Boresight. These dont get mentioned nearly enough. If your playing a fast, manuervable enemy; these things can make the difference. A recent vassal game between me(EA) and an ISA player saw heavy use of the Aft Boresights. Smack them with SAP, DD, Beam goodness coming and going. During certain campaign scenarios, aft boresights are a godsend.
5. AF weapons. No other Battle PL carries dedicated AF weaponry. Tinashis Mini-Beams can be used as AF, but that means their not firing those beams at YOUR ships, depending on arc. Omegas can usually be expected to take of fighters attacking the ship, freeing up your fighters for anti-ship strikes.
Cons.
1. Boresight. See the many threads about boresight vs Fwd Arc beams to know why this is a con. While at longer range they are nearly equal, an Omegas effective firepower takes a hit once range closes to 15" or less.
2. Fighters. Can be a con, depending on the engagement range. It does carry more fighters than others, but it launchs those fighters at the same speed as other Battle PL Ships. Effective use of the Scramble! SA is necessary to get all those extra fighters out in a hurry. However, at long ranges, you'll most likely not be using other SA's anyways, as the B arc main weapons put a severe crimp in the use of APTE or CAF.
3. Weak arcs. While omega pulse cannon have extra range and are TL, they are concentrated to the F arc, with weaker P/S and very weak A arc amounts of AD. Both the G'quan and Tinashi have balanced all-round firepower, while tertius can usually count on the superior raid and skirmish level centauri ships to cover its aft. While the aft boresight beam can cover to a certain extent, this may mean you have to turn away from the main fight in order to use that beam. If an ship of equal speed and more manueverability can mange to get in the A arc of an omega ( and out of boresight), the omega can find itself seriously outgunned by even Skirmish PL ships.
In reality, the Omega need support from smaller ships in order to be fully effective. It does have the surviveability to take a pretty good pounding, it lacks both the speed and nimbleness to bring its strengths to bear if out-flanked or taken by suprise. Its inherent fighter support can make such an attack costly for your enemy if played right, but not in time to prevent major damage. Good initial placement and range managment cna really make the omega shine, but put them in the wrong spot and wrong range, and thier target practice
Anyways hopes this help a bit. I'm nowhere near an EA expert but I belive these pros and cons would be fairly close to what they would say.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Erm a few big flaws with your points in favour of the Omega I'm afraid:
Attack rolls of 6 always hit so the weak trait in fact makes no difference when firing at a hull 6 target!
The Marathon and Apollo both carry dedicated antifighter weapons and theyre TURRETED. So do Vree command saucers which are also battle level. And Narns have emines
The Marathon matches it for interceptors.
All in all the Omega IS a good ship if used right but it should not be overestimated, it's still not up to the standard of a Tinashi or a Primus one on one, but EA fleets are not designed with one on one figthts in mind....
Attack rolls of 6 always hit so the weak trait in fact makes no difference when firing at a hull 6 target!
The Marathon and Apollo both carry dedicated antifighter weapons and theyre TURRETED. So do Vree command saucers which are also battle level. And Narns have emines
The Marathon matches it for interceptors.
All in all the Omega IS a good ship if used right but it should not be overestimated, it's still not up to the standard of a Tinashi or a Primus one on one, but EA fleets are not designed with one on one figthts in mind....
Methos5000
Mongoose
I think I have been doing weak weapons wrong. I was under the impression that a weak weapon subracted from the damage table meaning it could not cause a critical. From what I am getting from this thread though I guess it is suppose to be subtracted from the original AD, meaning that a hull 5 ship can only be hit on a 6 from a weak weapon and a hull 4 needs a 5 or 6 to hit. Is that the correct way of doing it?
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
I have to disagree with Angelus' call on the Omega. In terms of the four main races, even with the Armageddon upgrade, it's still the weakest. Heck, I'm not even sure it's the best within the EA.
It can probably be safely considered to be better than the Orestes- although not the 2241-49 Dreadnought from the EMW book, with it's amazingly non- boresighted medium laser.
the 2249-61 version of the Avenger is also battle level, and, well, basically a specialist ship. Fighters are still not that lethal.
Footnote for Earth Civil War players; recommission any derelict Artemis you come across. One of those and two Hermes wiped out a seven flight fighter attack force for me this afternoon, and it claimed four of them. And main share of a Nova. Incidentally, pretty much every EA battle choice except the Avenger has antifighter. Most of them turreted.
The Command Hyperion is, well, an EA command variant. it does not have the survivability to be worth it's level.
The Pulse Omega is a gap filler; you use it to support more conventional ships, on it's own- I have seen it used successfully, once. As bait.
The Apollo needs a fleet structure to perform in, to escort it and do the grunt work, but given that, it can justify itself. I use it with Flash, not for primary kills, but to kill off smaller craft and coup de grace larger damaged ships. It is artillery.
In terms of prime EA Battle choice, is there really any doubt? Marathon. it is still a shade fragile, but it is fast and hard hitting.
The problem with the 'Wall of Omegas' strategy is simply- what's the enemy going to put up against them? As Dilgar, say, I would split three of a 4-Battle force down Raid-Skirmish-2 Patrol, get 2 raid for the other, five Targrath three Omelos six Jashakar, I can maneuver a lot faster and more fluidly and need actually hazard boresighting on only light ships. I could expect an average two targeting locks a turn, with far more flexible long range and heavier close-range firepower. I reckon I'd lose two Jashakar and get one Omelos, one Targrath mauled, for four Omega kills. I would see that Omega wall coming and think 'easy meat.'
Then again, I reckon the early EA list is lethal enough to hurt the Minbari at anything much less than the absurd odds from the set scenarios, the Third Age list is more or less balanced, and the Crusade list is paralysed by it's own dead weight.
It can probably be safely considered to be better than the Orestes- although not the 2241-49 Dreadnought from the EMW book, with it's amazingly non- boresighted medium laser.
the 2249-61 version of the Avenger is also battle level, and, well, basically a specialist ship. Fighters are still not that lethal.
Footnote for Earth Civil War players; recommission any derelict Artemis you come across. One of those and two Hermes wiped out a seven flight fighter attack force for me this afternoon, and it claimed four of them. And main share of a Nova. Incidentally, pretty much every EA battle choice except the Avenger has antifighter. Most of them turreted.
The Command Hyperion is, well, an EA command variant. it does not have the survivability to be worth it's level.
The Pulse Omega is a gap filler; you use it to support more conventional ships, on it's own- I have seen it used successfully, once. As bait.
The Apollo needs a fleet structure to perform in, to escort it and do the grunt work, but given that, it can justify itself. I use it with Flash, not for primary kills, but to kill off smaller craft and coup de grace larger damaged ships. It is artillery.
In terms of prime EA Battle choice, is there really any doubt? Marathon. it is still a shade fragile, but it is fast and hard hitting.
The problem with the 'Wall of Omegas' strategy is simply- what's the enemy going to put up against them? As Dilgar, say, I would split three of a 4-Battle force down Raid-Skirmish-2 Patrol, get 2 raid for the other, five Targrath three Omelos six Jashakar, I can maneuver a lot faster and more fluidly and need actually hazard boresighting on only light ships. I could expect an average two targeting locks a turn, with far more flexible long range and heavier close-range firepower. I reckon I'd lose two Jashakar and get one Omelos, one Targrath mauled, for four Omega kills. I would see that Omega wall coming and think 'easy meat.'
Then again, I reckon the early EA list is lethal enough to hurt the Minbari at anything much less than the absurd odds from the set scenarios, the Third Age list is more or less balanced, and the Crusade list is paralysed by it's own dead weight.
angelus2000
Mongoose
Like I said, not an EA expert. I was simply going by my impression of it and was only meant to give its basic strengths and weakness in regards to other races Battle PL ships. Frankly, even with its strengths ,I do regard the Omeaga myself as being the weakest standard Battle PL ship by a slight margin. If its plasma mortars were included in the weapons fit or, a better option, its Heavy Pulse cannons given either/or AP and DD(which i still find strange that they don't), then it would be a beastly ship.
Personally, I don't regard the Marathon as better overall. The 2, I think, were meant to be complimentary to one another. Marathons can be a lot of trouble behind or to the flanks of enemy, but in long range duels, the Omega may have a few extra turns in which to freely use its beams. Marathons simply move too fast, even at half speed, for more than 3 turns of firing before whatever its shooting at is now behind it, if its used in a long range role.
Now a Marathon being APTE to the flanks or rear is a different story. its far too dangerous to be left alone, which means it must be engaged by enemy ships, which will now be forced to turn and engage. This opens up that ship to long range Beams and fighters from the Omega which is slowly crossing the field.
Personally, I don't regard the Marathon as better overall. The 2, I think, were meant to be complimentary to one another. Marathons can be a lot of trouble behind or to the flanks of enemy, but in long range duels, the Omega may have a few extra turns in which to freely use its beams. Marathons simply move too fast, even at half speed, for more than 3 turns of firing before whatever its shooting at is now behind it, if its used in a long range role.
Now a Marathon being APTE to the flanks or rear is a different story. its far too dangerous to be left alone, which means it must be engaged by enemy ships, which will now be forced to turn and engage. This opens up that ship to long range Beams and fighters from the Omega which is slowly crossing the field.
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
Slightly Norse John said:
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
Probably, especially considering the order they were listed in, but what answer you'd get putting it to Matt Sprange is anybody's guess. Besides, we're talking about a major mount here; a system which, for whatever reason, needs to be bolted to the ship's framework. Most of the EA ships have developed in the other direction, but if there is any of the old school that could cope, structurally, with mounting a system of that size and bulk (presumably) in a flexible mount, it would be the Orestes.
I like the Omega, it is a very good ship and sits nicely in the EA fleet. It overguns the Primus on available firepower, however it is more difficult to use it all - the aft boresight should never be discounted as a pointless adition. One on one the Primus should beat an Omega. In a fleet engagement, the Omega will probably out-perform the Primus. They are designed to do different tasks. The Omega is much better compared to a G'Quan.
The Marathon is an re-design and update of the Hyperion, and will proabably perform extremely well in the same kind of roles. It does seem to be worth two of them.
The Marathon is an re-design and update of the Hyperion, and will proabably perform extremely well in the same kind of roles. It does seem to be worth two of them.
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Silvereye said:
Especially when running away from the followers of crazed, homicidal, paranoid lunatics... :lol:
Nick
CodeofArms
Mongoose
I agree but i've come to learn Omegas are over-hyped just as much as every ship in the EA fleet; alot of inaccurate or larger-than life fluff-text has left alot to be desired for, and the emergence of a revised command Omega proves that even at the top end Earth has been missing a distinctive heavy-punch and all-star model on the board (exceptions are Poseidons which are quite beautiful).
Its all good and well for people to say 'escort the omega' but Earth Escorts either snipe (Saggitarius, Marathon and Hyperion to an Extent) or brawl up close (Oympus, Artemis frigates, Chronos, Novas). This leaves the relatively slow Omega trapped in the mid-range roll without any medium range weapons (18"-25") to work with. To get the best you end up using it to pump a few more thunderbolts on the table and have it act as an escort for very vulnerable ships such as the Poseidon. Take a close look at its weapon layout and hull and your left wondering why so much space for additional weaponry has been spared. Combined with damage/crew disparities and the fact that it essentially has only two combat-viable weapons, one of which is boresighted meaning CAF is difficult to get and that in the later game is nigh useless. To place the icing on the cake with how overrated interceptors are against most other races and you are left feeling that something is just not right with what the ship is and what the ship is supposed to be.
Twin-Link in my experience is the least favourable weapon-upgrade since a special action can do it for you. AP has more than won its weight over and over again in my games. I wouldn't personally take a ship that for the same price two quite similar ships can do and benefit you more (Nova's im talking about here). I recently agreed with some members of my group to make the Omega Heavy pulse cannons (F/A) TL/AP to give it a worthwhile secondary array at Battle Level; i've got no other compaints about its fire power once this was done since it fills all its rolls adequatley and then justifies its team-up with anything else in the fleet lists. IMHO its hard to argue a minor range increase constitutes the "Heavy" nature of the weapons especially compared to those mounted on an Explorer. By adding AP to the Pulse-Omega you actually get a ship that inspires a bit of fear in your opponent and allows you to stand a decent chance against the Minbari when you are forced to split your fire to break stealth rolls.
All and all its worth taking an Omega since its useful, its your best battle level warship in 3rd Age; it could have a few more variants IMHO but pretty much becomes antiquated once you hit Crusade Era. Use it wisely before you become intoxicated with the mighty heavy missle Apollo.
Green_Knight
Mongoose
The omega perform very good in larger emgagements,
5 pt Battle in special.
The best ship to escort an omega is an omega, i like forming
a wall of 3 Omegas in 5 pt battle.
The omega also has more staying power than the nova.
The nova makes a good addition to the omega as support IMHO.
Also you can take in a Hyperion or two to get along with your Omega.
5 pt Battle in special.
The best ship to escort an omega is an omega, i like forming
a wall of 3 Omegas in 5 pt battle.
The omega also has more staying power than the nova.
The nova makes a good addition to the omega as support IMHO.
Also you can take in a Hyperion or two to get along with your Omega.
