New Hit Point System

[Clovenhoof]

I made the following mergers, a bit different from yours:

Acrobatics (Balance, Tumble) [Escape Artist would also fit in, I just didn't think of it]
Athletics (Climb, Jump, Swim)
Perception (Listen, Spot) [see below]
Stealth (Hide, Move Silently)

I thought there were more mergers, but I can't remember now and I don't have one of our char sheets at hand. So this would only shorten the skill list by 4 or 5, but very common skills most character can benefit from. And it means a world of difference if you get, say, 5 skill points per level.

Search, by the way, is an INT skill, which is why I am reluctant to merge it with two WIS skills. It wouldn't break the game either way, however.

Likewise, I feel that Sense Motive is more about intuition and "having a feeling" rather than plain sensory input, which is why I didn't merge it into Perception. Moreover, consider that this would make Bluff pretty useless in combat, since almost everyone would have ranks in Perception and it's a level-modified check.

Deception: Bluff is a CHA, Forgery an INT skill. Apart from that, I guess it could be merged, but then again not every good Bluffer is a good Forger. Besides, this is the Thief's domain, who has a good supply of skill points anyway.

Persuasion: merging these is no problem I guess, except for the question who gets it as a class skill. 5 classes get Intimidate but only 2 of them get Diplomacy.

Spellcraft: since when is UMD a Conan skill? New official rule, or houserule?

If anybody has a better name for "Mechanics", by all means let me know. Somehow that skill name doesn't seem to fit in a sword and sorcery setting.

How about Skulduggery, or Legerdemain. ^^ I know the words technically mean something different, but I remember those were the corresponding skill names in the old Wizardry PC games.

As for Use Rope, the DCs are so low there, you really don't need many ranks, so not much is saved by the merger. Unless you want to tie up an Acrobat/Escape Artist.

Lastly, I'd like to add that merging too many skills is counterproductive if the new skill names are unintuitive. For example, it's difficult to see why Use Rope would be an application of Mechanics. So I'd leave it out.

 

[Sutek]

The Massive Damage rule Maybe Massive Damage should be set after the critter's HP instead of being a flat 20?

I run baddies with less than 20 HP as having a massive damage threshold equal to thier CON score. Generally, that lets mooks drop fairly easily at lower levels.

However, there's too many ways to get 20+ points of damage, and, really, at lower levels, this results in death a lot as written unless the foe is wearing really good armor that cuts the damage or unless he has a great FORT save to keep living thru the massive damage.

 

[Spectator]

Making me think about rhe MD rule; how about MD= 16hp plus 2hp/ HD. Thus a 10 HD creature would have a 36 hp MD trhreshold. Or tweak it to a variable hp/ Hit die formula you like or tweak the base number (16 to as you like it).

THe more I think about it, on the fly, why not have a terror check after a MD roll, basically to see if you have the guts to keep fighting the bad-a$$ who just dealt you a good whooping. After hitpoints are not healthpoints, except in the weird world of MD.

As for the skill Combos, I really like that a lot. it gives the poor fighter a decent shot at riding a hore nowadays!!!
I'm also of the opinion that the expanded feat list is a bit too expanded, but I have not pared that down yet, althought I think the classic debate we've had on these forums about whther or not an effective archer build is worth the feats, would make the archery feats the first on the chopping block to cut or to modify.

I'm still on the knife's edge about about the decision whether to incorporate simplicity in this game or abandon Conan system entirely and work arund the Castles and Crusaders concept of uber simplicity.

In any case. keep the ideas coming.
Merry croms-mass

 

[Hervé]

Spectator wrote:

it gives the poor fighter a decent shot at riding a hore nowadays!!!

Didn't you mean a horse or a whore? Conan fighters tend to ride them both... :lol:

 

[Spectator]

wow total freudian slip, well you got me thinking bad again, I meant horse, Right?

 

[Sutek]

Making me think about rhe MD rule; how about MD= 16hp plus 2hp/ HD. Thus a 10 HD creature would have a 36 hp MD trhreshold. Or tweak it to a variable hp/ Hit die formula you like or tweak the base number (16 to as you like it).

I just did it this way: If the FORT save of the creature was artificially high for any reason (in other words, obviously not just based on its CON stat) than I add the FORT save to the MD value that creature has.

For example, Ghouls have a CON 13, normally +1, but they have a +6 FORT for some unexplained reason (no feats or anything get it there). Therefore, they'd have a 26 MD value. An Earth Elemental has an inexplicable +17 FORT, so I give them a 37 MD value.

THe more I think about it, on the fly, why not have a terror check after a MD roll, basically to see if you have the guts to keep fighting the bad-a$$ who just dealt you a good whooping. After hitpoints are not healthpoints, except in the weird world of MD.

I wouldn't only because it cheapens Terror caused from other things like Demons and what not.

To make things interesting, you can ad non-lethal damage effects to consecutive successful MD saves. In other words, if something takes 20+ points in one shot but makes it's save, fine - it lives. But if it takes 20+ again from another single hit in that same combat, make him staggered, etc. There's even other categories like nauseated and dazed that you can work with if MD isn't doing it for you as it's written.

You say it's "complicated" and you want something simpler though. Where specifically does it seem too complicated? There's a lot of rules and skills and stuff, but they aren't hard to use, so I'm unclear on where you feel the system is too complex...

 

[thulsa]

Making me think about rhe MD rule; how about MD= 16hp plus 2hp/ HD. Thus a 10 HD creature would have a 36 hp MD trhreshold. Or tweak it to a variable hp/ Hit die formula you like or tweak the base number (16 to as you like it).

I've simply lowered the DC of the massive damage save to 5 + half damage inflicted. This in effect starts the DC off at 15 instead of 20, and gives mid-range characters/monsters (and PCs) an actual chance of making the save.

Low-level cannon-fodder usually have around 20 hp anyway, so they die on a single hit (unless they have heavy armor -- but the thief PCs can flank and finesse sneak attack past the armor anyway).

- thulsa

 

[Spectator]

Sutek, I mispoke when I said its complicated, I meant to say the logic for MD is complicated and obtuse, because as someone who grew up learning that HP = health AND luck, dodge, combat expertise, etc. and the HP are not Healthpoints, along comes CONAN and throws that whole concept to the wayside while still remaining on the OGL HP concept.

The more I contemplate it, I think if we play HP being more than Health Points, the MD effect really should be more of a 'get the heck out of dodge' check as opposed to instant death.

WHy have a Babarian with 85 hp succumb to a well placed backstab by a 4 th level thief that deals 20 hp? whe the attack damage does not add up to his current hitpoints (obviously a moot point if he super criticals and rolls 86 hp of damage though).
I think the fortitude save when failed should impel the fight or flight instinct; you make the save you fight, you lose the save you take Flight, as opposed to gurgling in your pool of blood.
I like the concept of hitpoints, however MD kind of dis-incentivizes the concept.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Clovenhoof]

@Spectator:
my interpretation of HP and MD has been that a "normal hit" of <20 damage is not a solid hit but something in the way of a glancing blow, a straining dodge, a flesh wound, something like that. Whereas a "massive hit" doing 20 damage or more would be a truly crippling blow, disabling you and causing massive blood loss (we're playing with the old "-1HP, disabled and dying" rule rather than "-10HP, dead", at least for PCs). In other words, a serious hit that you can turn into a less serious one by a test of fortitude.

Of course it will always require some suspension of disbelief, since it's 1) a fantasy game using 2) abstract rules, and I'm quite happy with that.

 

[Sutek]

See, my concept of HP is combat fatigue. The rolls to hit are just a summary, of sorts, of how effective one is at running one's opponent down, and HP are a calculation of how much "steam" an opponent has to keep up the fight before collapsing of exhaustion or wounds or whatever.

Massive Damage is probably the only time I can visualize a blow connecting with some poor shmuck's forehead. (lol) It's a strike that is so painfull or damaging that it really is a one-shot kill type of blow, and the recipient is left either dead or dying. The FORT save is really the only time you witness in the D20 system that nasty, bloody chop to the neck that drops your opponent in one shot.

Making the save means that the wound just doesn't stop you. Now there are rules for bleeding (-1 HP per round, cumulative for each bleeding wound)m so you could do that as a fix. Also, you have to consider that at any time a character is "dead" in Conan RPG, the "Left for Dead" rule for recovery kicks in. It's not worth it for Mooks, but this means that even a failed MD save doesn't kill you, it just means that you're going to die...eventually.

I don't think MD is out of place, particularly at 20 points and because of the LFD rule. D&D has a 50 point MD save, and that's too much. A static value for everything makes no sense to me, so I came up with the FORT save modifier.

 

[Timestheus]

See, my concept of HP is combat fatigue. The rolls to hit are just a summary, of sorts, of how effective one is at running one's opponent down, and HP are a calculation of how much "steam" an opponent has to keep up the fight before collapsing of exhaustion or wounds or whatever..

The problem with that is you should really split hitpoints into two groups. A smaller amount is the actual physical part, and the larger is steam as you put it.

Damage to the physical will take days or weeks to heal up. Damage to your stamina "steam" though would start regenerating moments after combat. Read through Conan, there are many times when he is nearly spent with exhaustion and just a few minutes of rest allows him to plunge right back in at near full strength.

 

[Sutek]

That's why drinking a beer heals you 1hp in the game as written. (lol) Also,, the formula for healing is VERY generous, and if it's taking weeks to recover after a fight, something probably isn't ideal (no healer, low CON, etc.)