New Hit Point System

[FuryMaster]

Here is a message I put up on my game forums for my Friday night group. I am currently running Conan and wanted to make things grittier without doing a major overhall of the D20 system (I know there are good rules sets out there but I felt that If I made any really big changes to the combat system that I might as well use the Runequest rules instead). This preserves the integrity of the game and the change is easy to make on the fly.

***Here is the message and rules**

I will be implementing a new Hit Point system starting this week. I have always felt that D20 games become less fun as characters increase in level largely because of the large amounts of HP they gain. Low level creatures are no longer a threat because characters can take insane amounts of damage, by the time you reach lvl 10 it takes a good 10 sword strikes to really be a threat and this is even more pronounced in Conan where there is a good chance that a character will have quite a bit of DR due to armor. This just makes battles too long and the game less fun.

We will experiment and tweak as neccessary, opinions and advice are welcome.

HP System Alpha

Hit Points will be generated as follows:

* Constitution score +
* Size Modifier Bonus +
* Creature Subtype Bonus +
* Level Bonus +
* Toughness =
* Total HP score

Size Modifier Bonus

* Small- 5hp
* Medium- 10hp
* Large- 20hp
* Huge: 40hp
* Gargantuan- 80hp
* Colossal- 160hp

Creature Subtype Bonus

* 0hp- Humanoids, Animals
* 10hp- Undead, Abominations
* 20hp- Demons, Outsiders, Constructs

Level Bonus

* d6 HD = +1 bonus per level up to lvl 10
* d8 HD = +2 bonus per lvl up to lvl 10
* d10 HD = +3 bonus per lvl up to lvl 10

HP raises automatically whenever your Con goes up 1.

**Message Ends**

I am thinking of using the B5 Toughness Rule, +2 HP...So why not use the B5 system? I thought there wasn't enough HP for the heroic lvl of Conan.

So, some examples of a low lvl creature HP change and then a high one.

Shark Pict: Lvl 1 Warrior HP 11- Across the Thunder River, pg 108. New HP 26 (10 med + 13 Con +3 for d10/1).

The Demon God of the Ghouls: 20HD demon with 390 HP (Ruins of Hyboria pg 61). New HP 120 (+20 demon type +40 huge size + 20 (2x10 for HD) + 40 Con).

The Ghoul Demon is still incredibly dangerous but can now be attempted by lower lvl parties and the combat won't take all night.

I plan to distribut more Fate Points to compensate for the deadlier nature of the game, but not so much so that players can save a bunch up. Players who are able to squirrel points away may get targeted by destiny since fate has obviously blessed them.

I am also using an edea from Hawkmoon for Fate: Share Destiny: You are able to spend a fate point on behalf of another creature, however the GM will decide the effect of that FP.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Running a grim and gritty game is fine, but consider the premise carefully lest you overshoot.

#1) Conan already is pretty gritty. HP already level out after lv 10+. There is Power Attack, there are two-handed weapons, there is Armour Piercing, and there is the Massive Damage rule. AP is balanced so that a determined fighter will penetrate armour 90% of the time. It is not that hard for a fighter of level 10+ to inflict more than 20 damage per hit - and each such hit is "save or die".

#2) OTOH, while Conan is much more deadly than D&D, it is still a Hero game. The player characters are supposed to be heroes, capable of superhuman feats. They try a lot of stunts which make the game fun. If they have to fear for their lives on every move in a very gritty game, they are likely to cut back on those dangerous tricks.
Allow me to add that I know several wannabe "realistic" games, in which the characters can do what a real person can do, and take about as much damage as a real person - but not much more. These games are rather boring for my liking.

#3) It's been mentioned a hundred times, HP are not Health points, but also represent the skill to avoid taking physical damage, which explains why you can take 10 sword hits without going down: you don't really get hit.

Well, those are the three points I'd like to make against changing the HP system. If you do, you'll play a different genre. But if that is indeed your intention, then pray, why do you play Conan in the first place?

 

[Krushnak]

Cloven pretty much said everything i was going to say. i would highly recommend against changing the hp system.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

I agree with Cloven also!

 

[Hervé]

Hello everyone, let me join the fray!
I guess it's not the number of HPs that matters, but how their loss is handled. Twice in the same combat last session I had one of my 17 HPs cultists that were struck for 16 damage. Everyone at the table found it was pretty unrealistic that the goons kept on fighting without any sort of penalty to their attack, defense or initiative after such a deadly blow. The Massive Damage rule Maybe Massive Damage should be set after the critter's HP instead of being a flat 20?

For those looking for a different way to handle HPs in the D20 system, you can always check the Vitality and Wounds rules of the SRD. I didn't try them but they don't look so bad.
Here's the link:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm

 

[FuryMaster]

I've read the stuff about hp being your characteers ability to avoid brutal hits, to have more endurance and able to, to roll with the punch and all that good stuff...this may be the case in D&D which has an armor class rating as its only defense but in Conan we have Dodge and Parry rolles, we have armor that reduces damage and saving throws that deal with with stamina and ability to roll with punches...no matter how you spin it, hp is your health score. The rules do recognize the need for less HP than in D&D with the lvl 10 rule but for me it didn't go far enough.

If you look at how this works, my system is making the heroes tougher at lower level, right out of the box they are tough and by the time a PC gets to lvl 20 he is likely to have anywhere between 45-70hp. The big effect however is that lower lvl creatures and NPCs remain much more of a threat.

The heroic nature of the game is preserved by allowing more Fate to flow through the characters....This sytem encourages smart play and not taking your enemies for granted which is all to comon in most D&D system. Currently the only thing that players use HP for is the Left for Dead ability, I want to see people use the Dodge/Parry and Save abilities...also the new use of Shared Destiny.

I know that HP is a sacred cow in the d20 system but cutting its availability back some doesn't make the game less heroic or less Conan. I would argue that making things more dangerous IS more heroic, having to rely on fate to get you through the tight spots, to give you the extra edge but to also be wary, for fate is fickle and can vanish when you need it most if you over rely on it.

The massive damage rule is great but mainly helps you slaughter greater numbers of lower lvl creatures, most high lvl stuff are going to have a good enough Fort to save....This just exacerbates the uselessness of low level creatures....you can slaughter them in great heeps (not against this by the way, this is in the Conan tradition) and they barely register as a threat because you have 115 HP with an AP 7, they have 15hp, i can throw 25 of them against you and you will likely prevail. In my system they will kill you, but not before you take 6-7 mayber more with you...that is heroic.

I'm tired of having to scale all encounters based purely on lvl. If I want to run City of the Ghouls as is, I can't think of doing it till the PCs reach at least lvl 10+, to do it earlier I have to lower lots of stats...with my little change, City of the Ghouls is doable at lvl 6 or so...level is still a consideration but the range is much greater.

Most importantly for me is it shortens the legnth of combat..for me that is important...I like to have actual roleplaying in my games, 3 hours of combat puts a serious dent in overall storytelling and interaction.

BTW...my desire for shortened combat may be a reflection of the size of my group, 7 players....when we all hit lvl 10 that is nearly 700hp +_all the bad guys can head up towards 2000 hp, thats a lot of sword strokes....I might not feel the urge to lessen HP if I had 4 players around the table, who knows? I know alot of folks would consider such large groups a blessing, and it is nice to have so many people who want to play...but it does cause legistical problems...and making the group size smaller is not an option...we already have things stretched out into 5 nights of RPG's (and no I don't play in all, just 2) and all the games have 6+ players with our Monday night group having 9 with 2 Skypes from Virginia.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Hello everyone, let me join the fray!
I guess it's not the number of HPs that matters, but how their loss is handled. Twice in the same combat last session I had one of my 17 HPs cultists that were struck for 16 damage. Everyone at the table found it was pretty unrealistic that the goons kept on fighting without any sort of penalty to their attack, defense or initiative after such a deadly blow.

Yeah, that one's a classic. It's also tricky to find a way around it, without giving any type of character the shaft. For example, if you assign additional penalties when HP drop below the CON score, you penalize players with high CON (which are more likely to take damage due to their role in combat). Also, many of those variants work at high levels but cause problems at low levels.

I also tried Wound/Vitality in a D&D game once, but abandoned it because there was a problem with many monsters (starting with Undead who don't have a CON score). Besides, I wanted the system to work in the PCs' favour, but effectively it works against them, because over the course of a hundred enemies, that's way over a 1000 extra Hit (wound) points to work down while the party only has maybe 50-60 extra HP between the PCs.

The best (though not ideal) workaround I came up with is to make a base of ~5HP actual "Body" points. So anyone who drops below 5HP is taking actual wounds, and gets gradual penalties on all actions. Also, NPCs dropping below 5HP are likely to stop fighting, maybe surrender or attempt to flee, depending on their level of professionality.
As I said, the system isn't ideal, but it's quick and works also on low levels.
BTW, it's unnecessary to create a high resolution rule. As we said, it's a hero game, and not a life simulation.

 

[thulsa]

Twice in the same combat last session I had one of my 17 HPs cultists that were struck for 16 damage. Everyone at the table found it was pretty unrealistic that the goons kept on fighting without any sort of penalty to their attack, defense or initiative after such a deadly blow.

In this case, the badly wounded cultist should consider withdrawing from battle, which in effect is the same as the PC killing/defeating him with one hit.

On the other hand, if the cultist was extremely fanatical and/or high on some kind of lotus drug, he would ignore the wound (and pain) and keep on attacking (without penalties) until dead.

In response to the original poster, I don't really see the need to mess around with the hit point system -- as others have pointed out, the game is already deadly enough with two-handed weapons, power attacks, sneak attacks, massive damage, and spells that kill on a failed Will save. Have you actually tried the rules as written? If yes, tell us what kind of tactics/feats/weapons the PCs and NPCs use.

As for handling big groups (and even small ones), I highly recommend the "Players Roll All the Dice" rules:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm

The game moves quicker, and the players are more involved all the time (since they have to roll to defend themselves) even if there are lots and lots of NPCs in combat.

- thulsa

 

[Hervé]

Thulsa wrote:

On the other hand, if the cultist was extremely fanatical and/or high on some kind of lotus drug, he would ignore the wound (and pain) and keep on attacking (without penalties) until dead.

Well,You know them better than anyone, Thulsa, they were cultists from the Pit of Yath high on Grey Desert Lotus ! Maybe that's why they didn't feel the pain (that's what I told the players anyway).

I'm not a huge fan of wound penalties, because it tends to penalize the players in the long way (NPCs last rarely more than a fight and recuring villains have time to heal). If they are used, I tend to think they should take after combat, the adredaline surge of the fight making the character ignore pain until the fight is over (maybe after a successful Fort or Will save).

 

[Clovenhoof]

Yes that's a good call, Hervé.
Well, "my" NPC henchmen usually want to end the fighting if they drop below 5hp, one way or other: surrender, withdraw/flee, whatever. Exceptions are fanatics of various colours.
As for the PCs, the players decide whether they should continue the fight (typically if victory is at hand) or take to their heels (if outmatched).

Also, my players give their characters a break after intense combats. They depict their chars as winded and strained, and typically set up camp to rest until the next morning, which restores a lot of HP already (I count that as a full day of rest).

 

[FuryMaster]

I like the Player Rolls rules you suggested Thulsa and may give them a try. As for your question, Yes, I have run Conan both in 1st and 2nd editions and like all d20 games i run they fizzle out in the lvl 8-10 range because combat becomes less fun to run and play- 2000 hp battles just take too long...

In preping tonites game I made the HP adjustments to some animal types for arena death matches in Messantia's arena. I found that creatures of 6-7 HD were spot on with the normal stats while 8-9 HD creatures lost around 5-7hp. A 2HD wolf however became far tougher going from 13hp to 29....this is exactly what I had hoped for...the change isn't significant to the overall game it just makes lower lvl stuff more heroic and higher level stuff less tough...This can be overstated as The Demon God of the Ghouls may have far few HP but the fact is that it still has 8 attacks that do 2d6 + 15 damage with an AP of 20 and an attack score of 28- you might be able to kill this guy more quickly but you better not under estimate him, especially since you have less hp also.

 

[Clovenhoof]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm

The game moves quicker, and the players are more involved all the time (since they have to roll to defend themselves) even if there are lots and lots of NPCs in combat.

Thanks for the link, thulsa, just had a look at it and it is very cool. Indeed players love to have a hand in their own fate. I knew the optional rule of making active attack _and_ defense rolls, but that one bogs the game down a lot.
This here looks great. It doesn't affect the probabilities at all, but gives the players more to do, which they love. I'll adopt that. =)

 

[Timestheus]

In my opinion most of the time the problem falls on the DM not on the player.

A player knows when he is low on hitpoints and especially in Conan where one cant just get a Cure Light Wounds spell after every battle they are likely to mitigate their actions.

On the other hand DMs (and I have been guilty of this often) do not do the same with the foes.


How many DMs have had their party of low level adventurers attacked by a pack of wolves or orcs or some other rather generic foe. We all have. Ok now how many had the entire pack flee when the first wolf was killed or had individual wolves run off when hit once really hard. How many times have the orcs fought to the last man every time just because they were a meaningless encounter used to drain off some hitpoints and spells off the party.

In Conan even low level foes are a danger to high level characters. Ganging up allows them bonuses to hit. Grappling allows even several weak foes to just bury the high level PC down to the ground. Finally the lack of easy healing means every hit you take in a day is likely to be damage you are stuck with for quite a while. Add in the ocassional nice deep gash that rends a portion of a PCs armor and even with 100 hitpoints you can feel pretty mortal pretty fast.

 

[Axerules]

In my opinion most of the time the problem falls on the DM not on the player.

A player knows when he is low on hitpoints and especially in Conan where one cant just get a Cure Light Wounds spell after every battle they are likely to mitigate their actions.

On the other hand DMs (and I have been guilty of this often) do not do the same with the foes.


How many DMs have had their party of low level adventurers attacked by a pack of wolves or orcs or some other rather generic foe. We all have. Ok now how many had the entire pack flee when the first wolf was killed or had individual wolves run off when hit once really hard. How many times have the orcs fought to the last man every time just because they were a meaningless encounter used to drain off some hitpoints and spells off the party.

I do agree 100 %.
The GM should make the difference between fanatics or old times foes looking for revenge, who'll fight to the death, and the average thug or animals who will run for their lifes if they're hurt.

 

[FuryMaster]

Hey Thulsa...That "The Players Roll All the Dice" system worked out really well, the players enjoyed it, it freed me up to concentrate on other things, like strategy and story, and it did speed things up...thanks for the link.

We did use the above HP system but made everyones original HP into a Hit Point Bank...characters can slide HP from their bank (inner resolve, determination) into the new HP, hp from the bank comes off first when damaged and is lost permenantly, players gain new hp to the bank the exact same way as they would normally (HD + Con Mod)...players seemed to like this system and were able to battle creatures of up to 4HD higher without having armor on...gladitorial battles against half-starved animals....they were far more likely to use their hp bank than call upon fate.

Thanks for the input everyone...in the end we all make the tweeks we feel will make our games more fun for our groups, in this case I was able to do that and add the new very fun system of players do all the rolling...and preserve the heroic nature of Conan and the well tuned, well adapted mechanics of the Conan D20 ruleset.

 

[thulsa]

Thulsa wrote:

On the other hand, if the cultist was extremely fanatical and/or high on some kind of lotus drug, he would ignore the wound (and pain) and keep on attacking (without penalties) until dead.

Well,You know them better than anyone, Thulsa, they were cultists from the Pit of Yath high on Grey Desert Lotus !

LOL

Good to hear that the module is still being used!

And if it wasn't for the uncertainties of 4th Edition and its paralyzing impact on third-party publishers, there would be many more sword and sorcery adventures from your truly in print by now. But we shall wait and see...

- thulsa

 

[Hervé]

Thulsa wrote:

Good to hear that the module is still being used!

You bet it is! Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia (Necromancer Games) is still in my opinion the best Conan related d20 material around. And it's from our own Thulsa ! Running the campaign is a pleasure each time. It needed some work to adapt the NPCs and to get rid of the D&dish stuff, but it was definively worth the effort and the conversion guidelines of your site were quite helpful.

I made some minor changes in the story but kept the plot as is. For instance, I replaced Ishtim, the shaykh 's son, by Yasmina, young and rebelious daughter, in order to include the traditional comely wench of the Conan stories; the ruins of Yhakkoth still stood ( I used the Kutchemes setting from Ruins of Hyboria and Thugra Kothan made a wonderful Yaod ), Zadhi became a major character in the campaign (becoming a cross over between the witch of the Conan movie and Calypso from Pirates fighting with combat claws!) and some more minor changes of the same kind. A lot of monsters and encounters were removed of course, but the story didn't need much change. I hope we'll see more of your stuff soon, be it The city of the Spider God or some mysterious professional work...

And if it wasn't for the uncertainties of 4th Edition and its paralyzing impact on third-party publishers, there would be many more sword and sorcery adventures from your truly in print by now.

Now, that's really too bad, but anyway I can understand the fears of the publishers in printing books that could be obsolete in a couple of weeks.
Seems like only Mongoose had the balls to release Conan 2nd Ed with the old 3rd edition rules. Or maybe it was just the result of a poor editing policy?...

 

[thulsa]

I replaced Ishtim, the shaykh 's son, by Yasmina, young and rebelious daughter, in order to include the traditional comely wench of the Conan stories;

I like it!

the ruins of Yhakkoth still stood ( I used the Kutchemes setting from Ruins of Hyboria and Thugra Kothan made a wonderful Yaod ),

Haven't thought of that before, but it makes perfect sense.

I hope we'll see more of your stuff soon, be it The city of the Spider God or some mysterious professional work...

The City of the Spider-God is only a week or two away; my players are just finishing it up these days. I had a blast DMing it, and I believe my players enjoyed it, too!

Seems like only Mongoose had the balls to release Conan 2nd Ed with the old 3rd edition rules. Or maybe it was just the result of a poor editing policy?...

Well, apart from a few rough spots, I think the 3rd Edition rules are just fine, so I am glad Mongoose stuck with them for the time being. The Conan RPG fixed most of the issues I had with core D&D anyway, so the coming of 4th Edition is a big non-event for me (except that it postponed or killed the publication of an entire book that I spent a year writing...).

I still wish Mongoose had reduced the number of skills in the Second Edition, though (such as folding Move Silently and Hide into Stealth, and Listen and Spot into Perception, and so on).

- thulsa

 

[Clovenhoof]

Seems like only Mongoose had the balls to release Conan 2nd Ed with the old 3rd edition rules. Or maybe it was just the result of a poor editing policy?...

No nuts no glory! :twisted:

By and large, 3.5 is relevant only to D&D, what with the Ranger revamp, spell changes and other stuff that doesn't exist in Conan. (Borderer is Ranger-3.5-inspired anyway) - Swift and Immediate Actions do have their merit though, so that would have been a nice addition.

I still wish Mongoose had reduced the number of skills in the Second Edition, though (such as folding Move Silently and Hide into Stealth, and Listen and Spot into Perception, and so on).

I houseruled exactly that. It works nicely, and the players are grateful to have effectively more skillpoints to spend. I can only recommend it.

 

[thulsa]

I houseruled exactly that. It works nicely, and the players are grateful to have effectively more skillpoints to spend. I can only recommend it.

Yeah, I'm tempted to house-rule it, but I like to use the official rules as much as possible, to make my game comparable to (and compatible with) others.

That said, here is a shortened list of skills I made a while back:

Appraise
Acrobatics (Balance, Escape Artist, Jump, Tumble)
Climb
Craft
Decipher Script
Deception (Bluff, Forgery)
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Heal
Knowledge
"Mechanics" (Disable Device, Open Lock, Use Rope)
Stealth (Hide, Move Silently)
Perception (Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive)
Perform
Persuasion (Diplomacy, Intimidation)
Profession
Ride
Sleight of Hand
Speak Language
Spellcraft (Concentration, Use Magic Device)
Survival
Swim

This cuts the total number of skills (also counting a few from the SRD not in Conan) from 36 down to 22. This is probably taking it too far, though...

If anybody has a better name for "Mechanics", by all means let me know. Somehow that skill name doesn't seem to fit in a sword and sorcery setting.

- thulsa